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Re: Czech ethnogenesis

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  • Jeff Smith
    ... relations between the earlier settlers ... This is very interesting and thought provoking. I have a few questions, though. Do I understand correctly that
    Message 1 of 2 , Feb 29, 2000
      "Alastair Millar" <alastair@...> sent:
      >Their settlement in the Bohemian Basin, however, did not lead directly to
      >the ethnogenesis of the Czech "tribe...

      relations between the earlier settlers
      >and the newcomers led to the origin of the tribe which probably at this
      >time
      >took the ancient (and thus etymologically uncertain) name of Czechs.

      This is very interesting and thought provoking. I have a few questions,
      though.

      Do I understand correctly that the Czechs did not arrive as a tribe, but
      became a tribe later?

      What is the ethnic relation (if any) between the Czechs and the Wends,
      Poles, and Red Croatians?

      Did members of those nations become Czechs?

      And from what people(s) were the Czechs formed into a tribe?

      Thanks for this info.

      Barcsi Janos
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    • Alastair Millar
      ... Well, the people who are NOW the Czechs were formed from the assimilation of other groups... like the people who are NOW the English. I suspect that, as
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 1, 2000
        Jeff/Janos wrote:

        >Do I understand correctly that the Czechs did not arrive as
        >a tribe, but became a tribe later?

        Well, the people who are NOW the Czechs were formed from the assimilation of
        other groups... like the people who are NOW the English. I suspect that, as
        with the English, there was a large initial population that later absorbed
        other, culturally-diverse, elements.

        The first Slavic settlers in Bohemia would have assimilated (perhaps
        forcibly) the disorganised remnant Germanic and/or other populations already
        in the area. Tr'es'tik is saying that the differences between the various
        groups of these settlers (which we can assume included some sort of
        "proto-Czechs" and/or the West Bohemian Lutice, the Croats who had settled
        NE Bohemia, plus presumably Sorbs/Wends along the northern fringes), and the
        "latecomers" all disappeared during the 6th-7th centuries. This gave rise
        to the group that we now call "Czechs".

        >What is the ethnic relation (if any) between the Czechs and the Wends,
        >Poles, and Red Croatians?

        At a guess... they're all Slavs! [grin].


        >Did members of those nations become Czechs?
        >And from what people(s) were the Czechs formed into a tribe?

        I think that it is fairly clear that some members of these groups were
        absorbed into the "Czechs" - see above.

        These are the big questions of early Czech history, right now. Many still
        believe (or prefer to believe) the old legend of "Forefather Czech" who led
        his people across the great river (the Elbe) and up R'ip hill, and there
        planted
        his standard, saying "My people have travelled enough, this is a rich and
        fertile land for them to live in".

        Personally, I've always thought it more likely that after fording one of
        Europe's major rivers and climbing a damn great hill to get a look at where
        he was going, he said something like "stuff it, I'm not walking another
        *!%$#* mile in this weather...".

        Cheers!

        Alastair

        ----------------------------------
        Alastair Millar <alastair@...>
        url: http:// www.skriptorium.cz
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