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What a great historical debate!

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  • timbo@xxxxxx.xxx
    Semantics aside Mr. Andersson, Jenne has made several valid historical points and has challenged you to a quite reasonable debate about your interpretation,
    Message 1 of 1 , Jul 28, 1999
      Semantics aside Mr. Andersson, Jenne has made several valid
      historical points and has challenged you to a quite reasonable debate
      about your interpretation, statement and expertise as a historian.
      Especially because you yourself thoughtfully opened the subject for
      Besides, between the two of us, a reasonable question is
      the meat of historical debate, as is a reasoned and well cited
      response. I see no evidence of ANYONE wearing tap dancing shoes. You
      are obviously a very intelligent man with an education. Will you
      respond to this almost benial query? I really miss high octane
      historical debate. I bet that you do as well.
      I believe the ball is in your court, if you want to respond as any
      other historian would. Thank you for this stimulating debate!
      Respectfully Yours,
      Tim Nalley
      aka Mordak Timofei'evich Rostovskogo, Midrealm

      From: "David Andersson" <d.andersson@...>
      To: <sig@onelist.com>
      Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 15:40:04 +0200
      Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
      Subject: Re: [sig] chill out

      From: "David Andersson" <d.andersson@...>


      I find it very interesting that you will apologize to others offended about
      your remarks to me, but not to me about your remarks to me. This says
      volumes about your character. Your tap-dancing aside, as I have said in
      private e-mails, please refrain from posting me.


      David Andersson
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jenne Heise <jenne@...>
      To: <sig@onelist.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 2:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [sig] chill out

      > From: Jenne Heise <jenne@...>
      > First of all, I want to apologize to everyone on this list for my heated
      > words. I was offended by Mr. Andersson's comments, but that is no excuse
      > for offending everyone else! I most humbly apologize.
      > On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Jenn/Yana wrote:
      > > Fact #1: NO ONE knows the root to the word "Slav". No less an
      > > than Mikhail Petrovich mentions the "slav/slave" connection as one of
      > > various possible derivations. It is NOT urban legend and it is NOT
      > > discredited theory (in fact, I would find it hard to believe that there
      > > ANY "discredited" theories in this issue -- if I am wrong, then start
      > > listing your sources).
      > Nope, it is not urban legend... I would trust the OED on this one. The OED
      > says quite clearly that the derivation of 'slave' comes from the large
      > number of Slavonic slaves in the Ninth century. However, I have found
      > NOTHING to indicate that enslavement of Slavic people was common in the
      > fourteenth century.
      > > Fact #2: It is true that the Nazis looked upon slavs as slaves and it
      > > possible (here I am out of my element) that they took ahold of
      > > works and twisted them to their cause. That does NOT make the
      > > theory a Nazi theory (if that is what Jadwiga meant by "biggoted German"
      > > theories).
      > *sigh* Paul, I'm sorry that people read this is 'Nazi'. But I didn't mean
      > Nazi, and I didn't say Nazi. What I was talking about is the nineteenth
      > century German imperialist history, which loudly denigrated all Slavs as
      > 'unfit for self government' and 'backward peoples'. Even the best
      > nineteenth century German historiography delineated between the backward
      > peoples of Eastern Europe and the civilization of Western Europe.
      > Of course, the nationalist historians of the East European cultures had
      > interesting things to say about the Germans too! This is a tangled mess,
      > as I have said repeatedly.
      > > Fact #3: Namecalling someone a Nazi (ESPECIALLY by making it through a
      > > racial slam against all Germans) is offensive outright. I AM German and
      > > ancestors were not racists. Being German does not make one a biggot and
      > > feel compelled to point out that Germans have contributed more to
      > > Culture than they have destroyed in it. If you wish, I can enlighten
      > > on the many non-biggoted things that Germans have done.
      > *laugh* Paul, I'm half German and half Polish. My brother's Penn. German
      > friends tease him that this means he wants to take over the world but he
      > can't figure out which foot to start marching with.
      > No, being German does not make you a bigot. The way I phrased what I said
      > was completely wrong and out of line, and I apologize. But I didn't not
      > call anyone a Nazi, please absolve me of that much.
      > I was, as I said, referring to a set of assumptions about Slavs common to
      > a kind of German historiography that started more than 150 years ago and
      > pops up in the SCA, combined with certain old-fashioned Polish and Slavic
      > jokes, with depressing regularity.
      > As for the dyslexic comment: I have a dear friend who is dyslexic and who
      > has in fact read 'Slav' as slave and gone off on a specific tangent about
      > slaves for quite some time before anyone could correct his
      > misapprehension!
      > Now, once again: I am asking Mr. Andersson to give any information
      > regarding widespread use of Slavs as slaves in the fourteenth century to
      > back up his comment. None of the sources I have used (Davies' _God's
      > playground_, Hoffman's _Land, Liberties and Lordship_, Gorecki's _Economy,
      > society, and lordship in medieval Poland_, etc., Dlugoz's _Annals_ [in
      > translation]) indicate that slave trade in people of Slavic backgrounds
      > was widespread enough after 1200 to justify the comment that appropriate
      > dress for a fourteenth century Slav would be chains.
      > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental), mka Jennifer Heise
      > jenne@...
      > "in verbis et in herbis, et in lapidibus sunt virtutes"
      > (In words, and in plants, and in stones, there is power.)
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