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Re: Polish-Lithuanian heraldry?

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  • Robert J Welenc
    ... I wouldn t think they were tinctureless. More than likely recorded changes Gules, a widget Or vs. Azure, a widget Or were cadency changes, to show
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 4, 2000
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      At 08:07 PM 2/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
      >Question: Is it my imagination, or are medieval herby treated as
      >tinctureless-- that the red or blue background and gold or silver
      >primaries vary randomly?
      I wouldn't think they were tinctureless. More than likely recorded
      changes "Gules, a widget Or" vs. "Azure, a widget Or" were cadency
      changes, to show different branches of the family/clan/whathaveyou.

      >(Someone else who has been investigating Polish
      >heraldry says the same thing, and also that objects seem to be
      'natural'
      >or 'object-colored' as opposed to a particular heraldic color.)

      That wasn't the gentle trying to register a gray object based on the
      Regional Styles rule, was it?

      Alanna
      ***********
      Saying of the day:
      Experience is what enables you to recognize a mistake when you make
      it again.
    • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
      ... It doesn t vary randomly, but it is true that before 1600, a single herb (Polish coat of arms) might have more than one way it was drawn or colored. This
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 4, 2000
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        On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Jenne Heise wrote:

        > > >Question: Is it my imagination, or are medieval herby treated as
        > > >tinctureless-- that the red or blue background and gold or silver
        > > >primaries vary randomly?

        It doesn't vary randomly, but it is true that before 1600, a single herb
        (Polish coat of arms) might have more than one way it was drawn or
        colored. This is one of the points I am dealing with in my analysis of
        arms from Szyman/ski's book. I hope to have an article done for the
        Proceedings and an on-line version as well once all the work is done.

        --Walraven
      • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
        ... No, the title of the book is _Herbarz_ (there s a subtitle, but it s too long for me to remember) ; ... No. In fact we have records of some herby only
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 4, 2000
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          On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jenne Heise wrote:

          > > As for finding out more about Polish heraldry, Jozef Szyman/ski published
          > > a book on the 14th and 15th century records of Polish "rad" heraldry.
          >
          > Would this be _The Samartians_?

          No, the title of the book is _Herbarz_ (there's a subtitle, but it's too
          long for me to remember) ;>

          > Question: Is it my imagination, or are medieval herby treated as
          > tinctureless-- that the red or blue background and gold or silver
          > primaries vary randomly?

          No. In fact we have records of some herby only from their medieval Polish
          blazons. In some cases, we don't know the colors, but in most of them we
          do. Typical Polish arms consist of a white object or collection of
          objects on a red field.

          > (Someone else who has been investigating Polish
          > heraldry says the same thing, and also that objects seem to be 'natural'
          > or 'object-colored' as opposed to a particular heraldic color.)

          This is not true. I have not come across any examples of natural
          coloration in Polish heraldry that I can remember. Almost everythin is
          argent, Or, gules, azure, and sable, with occasional vert. I've seen
          purpure only once.

          > Do you think there is any connection between the several 'raven with a
          > ring' herbs and Hungarian royal arms with the Raven?

          I don't know. I do know that Matthias Corvinus had a raven on his arms,
          but I don't have enough information to say more. One of my long-term
          goals is to collect as much information as I can on the origins of Eastern
          European herladry, and to prepare an article on the subject, so if you
          know something, I'd be *very* interested.

          --Walraven
        • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
          ... If you can document that the charge was used in period heraldry, it should be registerable. However, there *are* people out there who insist that any
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 4, 2000
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            On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Parsla Liepa wrote:

            > I've run across these problems. I've been wanting to put either a Latvian
            > 'saule' or an 'auseklis' on my arms, but no one can really come up with a
            > way to blazon them properly.

            If you can document that the charge was used in period heraldry, it should
            be registerable. However, there *are* people out there who insist that
            any registered charge must be blazoned using standard terms from books on
            English and French heraldry. I disagree with this, since it defeats the
            whole point of the "region variant" rules. However, I can understand the
            need to be able to recreate the artms from its written blazon.

            So what is an auskelis, and have you documented its use in period
            heraldry? Perhaps SIG could collectively create an on-line article about
            the unusual charges in period Eastern European heraldry?

            --Walraven
          • Robert J Welenc
            ... should ... that ... books on ... Um, Walraven? That s not an opinion. That s Da Roolz: VII.7.b. Reconstruction Requirement - Elements must be
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 4, 2000
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              >If you can document that the charge was used in period heraldry, it
              should
              >be registerable. However, there *are* people out there who insist
              that
              >any registered charge must be blazoned using standard terms from
              books on
              >English and French heraldry.

              Um, Walraven? That's not an opinion. That's Da Roolz: VII.7.b.
              "Reconstruction Requirement - Elements must be reconstructible in a
              recognizable form from a competent blazon. Any element used in
              Society armory must be describable in standard heraldic terms so that
              a competent heraldic artist can reproduce the armory solely from the
              blazon."

              If a competant heraldic artist (and I consider myself one such) would
              need some obscure, highly specialized source to identify a charge,
              and such charge cannot be described in standard blazon by its parts,
              then it cannot be registered. (Or haven't you heard Lady Solveig
              complain about the return of the Japanese tomoe?)

              >So what is an auskelis, and have you documented its use in period
              >heraldry?

              Equally important, does it have a standard form such that it can be
              reliably reproduced?

              >"Perhaps SIG could collectively create an on-line article about
              >the unusual charges in period Eastern European heraldry?
              >
              >--Walraven

              Run it by Laurel first for vetting, or such Heralds as she
              designates, please! We get enough weird widgets as it is, without
              adding to the list of "cool-but-unregisterable."

              Alanna
              Submissions Herald
              Laurel Minion
            • Jenne Heise
              ... No, he s not even in the SCA. Someone from the Herbarz list. (Alanna, were you there when that one came across the table? I dragged Pedro off into another
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 6, 2000
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                > >(Someone else who has been investigating Polish
                > >heraldry says the same thing, and also that objects seem to be
                > 'natural'
                > >or 'object-colored' as opposed to a particular heraldic color.)
                >
                > That wasn't the gentle trying to register a gray object based on the
                > Regional Styles rule, was it?

                No, he's not even in the SCA. Someone from the Herbarz list.

                (Alanna, were you there when that one came across the table? I dragged
                Pedro off into another room and gave _HIM_ the rant that that submitter
                should have had. Pedro STILL chuckles about that.)
                The gentle in question was trying to register a known variant of
                Lithuanian/Polish heraldry documented to the battle of Grunwald, but he
                had only that one example. It doesn't count for 'natural' either as I
                believe it was a geometric which doesn't have a 'natural' color.

                I think 'gray' may be some wierd Lithuanian variant but I haven't seen
                enough examples of it in heraldry labelled by date and Polish or
                Lithuanian or Ruthenian origin to find a pattern. Walraven, have you?

                Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

                "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
                not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
              • Jenn/Yana
                ... Actually, if anyone wants to write an article about this, it can be put up on the web (or in Slovo) without Laurel s approval. What would be good to see
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 6, 2000
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                  Walraven spoke:
                  >>"Perhaps SIG could collectively create an on-line article about
                  >>the unusual charges in period Eastern European heraldry?

                  And Alanna answered:
                  >Run it by Laurel first for vetting, or such Heralds as she
                  >designates, please! We get enough weird widgets as it is, without
                  >adding to the list of "cool-but-unregisterable."

                  Actually, if anyone wants to write an article about this, it can be put up
                  on the web (or in Slovo) without Laurel's approval. What would be good to
                  see is something in the article that clearly states that the information
                  will not stand up to SCA-standards for registering arms. I myself would
                  welcome any well-researched articles on any subject usable to SIG members,
                  with or without the approval of an official SCA entity. SIG is mainly for
                  people within the SCA, but not solely.

                  --Yana
                • Robert J Welenc
                  ... put up ... Eeep, no, I wasn t suggesting that Laurel should have control over what you put up on a non-SCA-heraldry website -- I m only asking the ...
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 7, 2000
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                    At 03:16 PM 2/6/00 -0600, you wrote:
                    >From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...>
                    >
                    >Walraven spoke:
                    >>>"Perhaps SIG could collectively create an on-line article about
                    >>>the unusual charges in period Eastern European heraldry?
                    >
                    >And Alanna answered:
                    >>Run it by Laurel first for vetting, or such Heralds as she
                    >>designates, please! We get enough weird widgets as it is, without
                    >>adding to the list of "cool-but-unregisterable."
                    >
                    >Actually, if anyone wants to write an article about this, it can be
                    put up
                    >on the web (or in Slovo) without Laurel's approval.

                    Eeep, no, I wasn't suggesting that Laurel should have control over
                    what you put up on a non-SCA-heraldry website -- I'm only asking the
                    kind of thing you suggest below:

                    >What would be good to
                    >see is something in the article that clearly states that the
                    information
                    >will not stand up to SCA-standards for registering arms.

                    Some things may be registerable, some not. That's why it would be
                    good to have a senior herald look it over.

                    Alanna
                    ***********
                    Saying of the day:
                    "Yesterday is gone. Tomorrow has not yet come. We have only today.
                    Let us begin." � Mother Teresa
                  • vespirus@socrates.berkeley.edu
                    ... I ve never seen an example of gray in EE heraldry, except where it was actually silver (argent). That doesn t rule out its use after 1600 or in heraldry
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 7, 2000
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                      On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Jenne Heise wrote:
                      > I think 'gray' may be some wierd Lithuanian variant but I haven't seen
                      > enough examples of it in heraldry labelled by date and Polish or
                      > Lithuanian or Ruthenian origin to find a pattern. Walraven, have you?

                      I've never seen an example of "gray" in EE heraldry, except where it was
                      actually silver (argent). That doesn't rule out its use after 1600 or in
                      heraldry I haven't seen, but it would be a real oddity in any event.

                      --Walraven
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