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East European food...

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  • Jenne Heise
    Pan e Pani, Here s the URL for the handout I used for the class on Polish and Russian food. Feel free to criticize, comment or tear it apart: this is the first
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 1, 2000
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      Pan e Pani,

      Here's the URL for the handout I used for the class on Polish and Russian
      food. Feel free to criticize, comment or tear it apart: this is the first
      iteration. I am planning to revise it once I have the handouts for the
      classes I'm teaching in mid February. (Personally, I think it is a mess
      and a lot of information is missing, so don't worry about offending me!)

      http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/slavicfood.html

      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

      "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
      not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
    • Jenn/Yana
      Here ya go! Why do you feel that Russian and Kievan food was influenced by Constantinople and Turkey? Did I manage to miss something in my readings? Their
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 1, 2000
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        Here ya go!

        Why do you feel that Russian and Kievan food was influenced by
        Constantinople and Turkey? Did I manage to miss something in my readings?
        Their foodways (religious restrictions and the like) may have been
        influenced, but I see very little influence in the actual foods (what they
        ate, as opposed to why or how they ate it). I personally have problems
        with the mixing of Polish and Russian foodways and foods, they really are
        two distinct entities. If you are attempting a comparison of Poland and
        Russian, *that* could be neat. But please be careful to distinguish
        between Russia and Poland, sometimes it isn't clear.

        Please distinguish between salt-pickling and vinegar-pickling where you
        can. Russian sauerkraut is a salt-pickle. They also may have used vinegar
        to pickle, although they definitely used vinegar as a seasoning.

        Try to distinguish as much as possible *when* the food items were made.
        You mention that the recipes in the Domostroi are all after 1600, most are,
        but not all. There is at *least* one "true" period recipe, the one for
        cabbage soup which you quote in your work.

        I disagree with your assertion that "Food in the Rus' Primary Chronicle" is
        a poorer source than "Bread and Salt". "Food" may be of a much more
        limited scope, but it is a focus on the foods themselves, not a focus on
        the economics surrounding food, as "Bread and Salt" is. They are both good
        sources, it just depends on how and why you use them.

        "Among peasants, bean greens were eaten." Did you mean beet greens?

        All in all, great job. You've suceeded (will succeed) at teaching
        something that has been a wish of mine to share. I will enjoy reading your
        finished result!

        --Yana
      • Jenne Heise
        ... Yes, I know. However, one of the things I did find was that they had a lot of things in common (more because Russia influenced Poland than the other way
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 1, 2000
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          > ate, as opposed to why or how they ate it). I personally have problems
          > with the mixing of Polish and Russian foodways and foods, they really are
          > two distinct entities. If you are attempting a comparison of Poland and
          > Russian, *that* could be neat. But please be careful to distinguish
          > between Russia and Poland, sometimes it isn't clear.

          Yes, I know. However, one of the things I did find was that they had a lot
          of things in common (more because Russia influenced Poland than the other
          way around I think). The handout needs much more work in this respect.

          > Please distinguish between salt-pickling and vinegar-pickling where you
          > can. Russian sauerkraut is a salt-pickle. They also may have used vinegar
          > to pickle, although they definitely used vinegar as a seasoning.

          *nod* I didn't feel confident enough in my reading of the sources to be
          sure which was which.

          > Try to distinguish as much as possible *when* the food items were made.
          > You mention that the recipes in the Domostroi are all after 1600, most are,
          > but not all. There is at *least* one "true" period recipe, the one for
          > cabbage soup which you quote in your work.

          Oops. I regarded that as generic sort of directions, rather than a recipe,
          but I guess that's a meaningless distinction.

          > "Among peasants, bean greens were eaten." Did you mean beet greens?

          Well.. the source says 'bean greens' in sufficient detail to make me sure
          that the _source_ was talking about beans.
          The question is, was she misreading HER source?

          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

          "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
          not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 2/1/2000 2:03:59 PM Central Standard Time, ... I vaguely recall that Asian nomads ate horseflesh. To this day, it s not considered normal
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 1, 2000
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            In a message dated 2/1/2000 2:03:59 PM Central Standard Time,
            jdmiller2@... writes:

            > Their foodways (religious restrictions and the like) may have been
            > influenced, but I see very little influence in the actual foods (what they
            > ate, as opposed to why or how they ate it).

            I vaguely recall that Asian nomads ate horseflesh. To this day, it's not
            considered "normal" food by Russians, and the medieval Chronicles noted the
            fact of horse-eating as a sign of extreme famine. Food restrictions in period
            were far more stringent than they are today, and Christian Orthodoxy demands
            much greater adherence to restrictions during Great Lent and all the other
            smaller fast periods and days (well, I always fail in this, but my mother is
            very strict).

            These considerations, and the differences (later) between Muslim and
            Christian dietary restrictions would have prohibited too much mutual
            influence.

            As for "bean greens" vs "beet greens", I offer another possibility, but I
            would need to see the original to be certain. In Russian, less in modern that
            old, the adjective (green) could be placed before the noun (beans) in a way
            that would sound today odd and stilted. Thus, word for word, "bean greens" --
            <boby zelenye> -- would actually mean "green beans", and bring us to familiar
            ground.

            Just a few thoughts.

            Predslava,
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