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Food questions

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  • Jenne Heise
    I m still slaving at the Slavic (Russian and Polish) food class handout. And I ve come across a few burning questions... Which parts of the Domostroi (Pouncy
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 27, 2000
      I'm still slaving at the Slavic (Russian and Polish) food class handout.
      And I've come across a few burning questions...

      Which parts of the Domostroi (Pouncy edition) are post-period? I know the
      main chapter with the recipes is. What about the material in brackets?

      The Pouncy Domostroi mentions 'blintzes' filled with (different things). I
      kind of know what blintzes are, but is this an accurate translation.
      She also mentions what sound like piroshki, but is that an accurate
      translation? I get the impression that pirogi are not period even in
      Russia.

      Kut'ya-- Kut'ya is apparently eaten on festival days as well as being
      offered to the dead, yes? Is it whole-grain exclusively, rather than
      kasha, and also is it always one kind of grain or another?

      Sour cabbage soup? Is this actually a fermented soup, as the context
      indicates, or soup made with fermented cabbage?

      Zur: it appears that Zur (lenten fermented soup) is period for Poland from
      literature references, but since they are cited in Sophie Knab I'm a
      little unclear on those. Was Zur actually a lenten dish of the middle
      ages? Dembinska says yes, but only on the evidence of zur-pot-like pots in
      medieval archaelogical digs.

      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
      disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

      "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
      not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
    • petzserg
      I don t know if its the same as Kut ya, but buckwheat and honeywater(heavy on the honey) is still used in penifid das(memorial services) ... From: Jenne
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 27, 2000
        I don't know if its the same as Kut'ya, but buckwheat and honeywater(heavy
        on the honey) is still used in penifid'das(memorial services)
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jenne Heise" <jenne@...>
        To: "Slavic Interest Group" <sig@onelist.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 11:46 AM
        Subject: [sig] Food questions


        > From: Jenne Heise <jenne@...>
        >
        > I'm still slaving at the Slavic (Russian and Polish) food class handout.
        > And I've come across a few burning questions...
        >
        > Which parts of the Domostroi (Pouncy edition) are post-period? I know the
        > main chapter with the recipes is. What about the material in brackets?
        >
        > The Pouncy Domostroi mentions 'blintzes' filled with (different things). I
        > kind of know what blintzes are, but is this an accurate translation.
        > She also mentions what sound like piroshki, but is that an accurate
        > translation? I get the impression that pirogi are not period even in
        > Russia.
        >
        > Kut'ya-- Kut'ya is apparently eaten on festival days as well as being
        > offered to the dead, yes? Is it whole-grain exclusively, rather than
        > kasha, and also is it always one kind of grain or another?
        >
        > Sour cabbage soup? Is this actually a fermented soup, as the context
        > indicates, or soup made with fermented cabbage?
        >
        > Zur: it appears that Zur (lenten fermented soup) is period for Poland from
        > literature references, but since they are cited in Sophie Knab I'm a
        > little unclear on those. Was Zur actually a lenten dish of the middle
        > ages? Dembinska says yes, but only on the evidence of zur-pot-like pots in
        > medieval archaelogical digs.
        >
        > Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
        > disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...
        >
        > "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
        > not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
        >
        >
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        >
        >
      • Jenn/Yana
        ... The explanation of which parts of the Domostroi are period for us can be found in the introduction. I have reduced them down to this, which I previous
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2000
          >Which parts of the Domostroi (Pouncy edition) are post-period? I know the
          >main chapter with the recipes is. What about the material in brackets?

          The explanation of which parts of the Domostroi are period for us can be
          found in the introduction. I have reduced them down to this, which I
          previous posted to the Cook's List:

          The sections with recipes (chapters 64:2 through 66) are not period and may
          be of a _foreign_ origin, as Pouncy points out in her introduction. She
          says that they were added on sometime between 1600 and 1625. The wedding
          section (chapter 67) and its menus do not appear until after the addition
          of the recipes sections, again out of SCA-period. Now, I _am_ an advocate
          for making the cut-off date for SCA-period Russia sometime in the mid-17th
          cen (pre-Peter the Great), but the recipes sections should be used with
          recognition of their OOP-ness.

          >The Pouncy Domostroi mentions 'blintzes' filled with (different things). I
          >kind of know what blintzes are, but is this an accurate translation.
          >She also mentions what sound like piroshki, but is that an accurate
          >translation? I get the impression that pirogi are not period even in
          >Russia.

          Do you mean Polish <pierogi> (dumplings) or Russian <pirogi> (pies)?
          Pirogi (pies) are mentioned a few times in SCA-period Russian documents,
          including the Domostroi. Pirozhki (pastries/little pies) are mentioned in
          the Domo as well.

          >Kut'ya-- Kut'ya is apparently eaten on festival days as well as being
          >offered to the dead, yes? Is it whole-grain exclusively, rather than
          >kasha, and also is it always one kind of grain or another?

          Then? Don't know. Now? Various grains, although all the modern recipes I
          have seen call for poppy seeds. I believe they are all whole-grain or
          cracked grains.

          >Sour cabbage soup? Is this actually a fermented soup, as the context
          >indicates, or soup made with fermented cabbage?

          The soup itself is not fermented, it possible has some sort of fermented or
          pickled liquid added to it. It may also be made with sauerkraut, which I
          would consider pickled cabbage, not fermented cabbage.

          Here's a quick look at what I found in the Pouncy Domostroi, in the
          definitely period sections (not a complete list):

          (p 125) "When the servants bake bread, order them to set some of the dough
          aside, to be stuffed for pies. When they bake wheat bread, have pies made
          for the family from the coarse flour left in the sieve. For meat days,
          stuff them with whichever meat is to hand. For fast days use kasha, peas,
          broth, turnips and mushrooms, cabbage or whatever God provides that will
          please your family."

          So we have yeast-dough and something using coarse flour (shortcrust pastry,
          perhaps?)

          (p 150) horn-shaped rolls (pirozhki?), pancakes (bliny?) and sour cream.

          (p 151) turnovers, horn-shaped rolls, pies, pancakes, noodles from peas,
          blintzes (more bliny?), cookies

          (p 152) doughnuts (Mmmm, doughnuts! Probably not jelly-filled and sugar
          coated, though.)

          (p 161) turnovers (Pouncy footnotes them as "pirozhki"), pancakes (probably
          bliny again)

          Of course, all this will need to be checked against the original Russian.

          --Yana
        • petzserg
          Just a question...Pirozhki are the usually poistni pastry not using eggs, butter et c. and filled with fried cabbage and onion? If so , when they are folded in
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2000
            Just a question...Pirozhki are the usually poistni pastry not using eggs,
            butter et c. and filled with fried cabbage and onion? If so , when they are
            folded in a certain way (two slices in the middle an folded over each other
            to allow the filling to show through. Could this be the crescent rolls? hank
            s ahead of time
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jenn/Yana" <jdmiller2@...>
            To: <sig@onelist.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:57 PM
            Subject: Re: [sig] Food questions


            > From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...>
            > (p 125) "When the servants bake bread, order them to set some of the
            dough
            > aside, to be stuffed for pies. When they bake wheat bread, have pies made
            > for the family from the coarse flour left in the sieve. For meat days,
            > stuff them with whichever meat is to hand. For fast days use kasha,
            peas,
            > broth, turnips and mushrooms, cabbage or whatever God provides that will
            > please your family."
            >
            > So we have yeast-dough and something using coarse flour (shortcrust
            pastry,
            > perhaps?)
            >
            > (p 150) horn-shaped rolls (pirozhki?), pancakes (bliny?) and sour cream.
            >
            > (p 151) turnovers, horn-shaped rolls, pies, pancakes, noodles from peas,
            > blintzes (more bliny?), cookies
            >
            >
            > (p 161) turnovers (Pouncy footnotes them as "pirozhki"), pancakes
            (probably
            > bliny again)
            >
            >
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            >
            >
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/1/2000 9:42:44 PM Central Standard Time, ... Pirozhki can be lenten or not. The pastry used for them varies, but it s usually a bread-type
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
              In a message dated 2/1/2000 9:42:44 PM Central Standard Time,
              petzserg@... writes:

              > Just a question...Pirozhki are the usually poistni pastry not using eggs,
              > butter et c. and filled with fried cabbage and onion?

              Pirozhki can be lenten or not. The pastry used for them varies, but it's
              usually a bread-type dough, and if they're filled with meat, then it's a rich
              dough with butter and eggs.

              > If so , when they are
              > folded in a certain way (two slices in the middle an folded over each other
              > to allow the filling to show through.

              Actually, it's a circle, folded down the middle over the filling -- one piece
              of dough.

              > Could this be the crescent rolls?

              If you mean, are they crescent-shaped? Not really, just a pudgy half-circle.
              If you mean can one une croissant dough? It's a complicated dough to make
              from scratch. If you mean can one use the store-bought refrigerated
              crescent-roll dough? It's very awkward to work.

              If you really don't want to make the dough from scratch, then you can use
              puff pastry sheets, or pie dough. But yeast dough is best.

              Some cooks fry the pirozhki, some bake them. My mother does the latter, and
              brushes each pirozhok with a yolk glaze before baking.

              Pirogi (full-size pies) are made the same way, except they're baked in one
              big piece and cut instead of being baked into finger-food sized pastries.

              Predslava.
            • Jenn/Yana
              On the subject of pirozhki: I have seen recipes for sour cream dough, yeast doughs and shortcrust pastry (like pie crust). In Molokhovets book A Gift for
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
                On the subject of pirozhki:

                I have seen recipes for sour cream dough, yeast doughs and shortcrust
                pastry (like pie crust). In Molokhovets' book "A Gift for Young
                Houswives", she refers to boiled doughs and puff-pastry pirozhki too. She
                also has one recipe (#221) that says you can make them horn-shaped
                (crescents!) or fold them in half "like books", which could look like
                rectangles, possibly. In size, pirozhki can vary from palm-sized or so
                (think finger food) to bigger (think big handful) . Now of course, I am
                working from modern cookbooks, both English and Russian-language and from
                food I have eaten cooked by Americanized Russians. But we know that
                medieval Russians had some sort of small filled pies that are perfect for
                SCAers to try to recreate. They would make a great lunch item to take to
                an event.

                --Yana
              • Patricia Hefner
                ... Yana--Hey, how can I get hold of this book, or at least one like it? I m getting interested in cooking, I think I d like to enter A&S competitions in the
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
                  > On the subject of pirozhki:
                  >
                  > I have seen recipes for sour cream dough, yeast doughs and shortcrust
                  > pastry (like pie crust). In Molokhovets' book "A Gift for Young
                  > Houswives", she refers to boiled doughs and puff-pastry pirozhki too.


                  Yana--Hey, how can I get hold of this book, or at least one like it? I'm
                  getting interested in cooking, I think I'd like to enter A&S competitions in
                  the cooking category.

                  Dekuji!
                  Isabelle
                  patricia.hefner@...
                • Jenn/Yana
                  ... It isn t a period text, it is 19th century. Don t use it for A&S documentation. You can order it in English under the title Classic Russian Cooking
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
                    >Yana--Hey, how can I get hold of this book, or at least one like it? I'm
                    >getting interested in cooking, I think I'd like to enter A&S competitions in
                    >the cooking category.


                    It isn't a period text, it is 19th century. Don't use it for A&S
                    documentation. You can order it in English under the title "Classic
                    Russian Cooking" translated by Joyce Toomre. Further bib info is on the
                    Russian KNowledge Page under "Food".

                    --Yana
                  • Jenn/Yana
                    ... Actually, I haven t put up the English biblio info yet (was brushing my teeth and had a doh! revelation). Here you go: Classic Russian Cooking: Elena
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
                      >Further bib info is on the
                      >Russian KNowledge Page under "Food".

                      Actually, I haven't put up the English biblio info yet (was brushing my
                      teeth and had a "doh!" revelation). Here you go:

                      Classic Russian Cooking: Elena Molokhovets' A Gift to Young Houswives.
                      Translated and introduced by Joyce Toomre. Indiana University Press. 1992.

                      I bought my copy at Barnes and Noble, most bookstores will be able to order
                      it if it isn't on the shelf.

                      --Yana
                    • Patricia Hefner
                      I m getting interested in cooking, I think I d like to enter A&S competitions in ... OK, but I think cooking anything like that will improve my over-all
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 2, 2000
                        I'm> >getting interested in cooking, I think I'd like to enter A&S
                        competitions in
                        > >the cooking category.
                        >
                        >
                        > It isn't a period text, it is 19th century. Don't use it for A&S
                        > documentation.

                        OK, but I think cooking anything like that will improve my over-all cooking
                        skills. Taking something from the 19th century to A&S is about like entering
                        a pound cake!! :-) I really need practice in the art of cooking, period.
                        That's why not all my stuff at this point is even period. That's not the
                        issue right now.

                        Dekuji!
                        Isabelle
                        patricia.hefner@...
                      • Jenne Heise
                        Relatively unrelated but very odd... after last week s event, I had three leftover loaves of dark bread. So I went looking for the Black Bread Soup (probably
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 3, 2000
                          Relatively unrelated but very odd...
                          after last week's event, I had three leftover loaves of dark bread. So I
                          went looking for the Black Bread Soup (probably OOP) recipe that I knew I
                          had. In the Culinary Institute's Polish cookbook, I found both the black
                          bread soup recipe AND three recipes for kvas-- all of which they listed as
                          SOUP BASE RECIPES.
                          How very odd.

                          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                          disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me...

                          "You do not lead by hitting people over the head -- that's assault,
                          not leadership." Dwight D. Eisenhower
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