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Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

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  • aldo
    KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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      KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.

      From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


      Greetings

      Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.

      Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.

      according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).

      Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.

      Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin

      Hope that helps.

      Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
      >
      >
      >Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
      >· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
      >· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
      >· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
      >· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
      >· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
      >· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
      >o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
      >o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
      >o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
      >
      >If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
      >
      >-Halbrust
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • aldo
      I should add that all alcoholic drinks were strictly in relation with religious festivals as over alcohol U COULD CONNECT URSELF with the gods. Jordanes tells
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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        I should add that all alcoholic drinks were strictly in relation with religious festivals as over alcohol U COULD CONNECT URSELF with the gods. Jordanes tells us that Baltic peoples used MEDUS (even today the name for MEAD remained unchanged in Latvian) and Slavs MIOD but, as we know from other sources, in the countryside (today is still so) no drink was used at everyday meals, let alone water. MIOD was a “magic” drink and THEREFORE required to be spawned in order to start fermentation. Beer istead started fermentation “by itself” letting it stand the night over in an opened container during the “good” season. The Vikings used to take over with them in their raids a bucket with the socalled mother-of-beer i.e. fermenting barley dough to make OLUT or Ale.

        From: aldo
        Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 8:45 AM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


        KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.

        From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
        To: mailto:sig%40yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

        Greetings

        Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.

        Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.

        according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).

        Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.

        Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin

        Hope that helps.

        Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
        >
        >
        >Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
        >· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
        >· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
        >· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
        >· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
        >· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
        >· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
        >o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
        >o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
        >o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
        >
        >If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
        >
        >-Halbrust
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings! Not exactly so.
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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          Greetings!

          Not exactly so.
          http://fasmer-dictionary.info/%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_%D0%A4%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0/5594/%D0%9A%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%81 (the page is in Russian)
          Kvas was simply anything sour/fermented - even sour tanning agent was called усмяный квас Usmiany Kvas (usma = leather). So, when fermentation was applied to bread/grain, it made bread kvass. Vassmer just stated the _relation_ of the word Kvass to the Latin word "cheese" and Albanian "sour shep milk", but other related words have more to do with a (wedding) feast.

          Imho, the misinterpretation comes mostly from the dual biology of fermentatin process: it involves microbial flora of both alcoholic fermentation and lactic acid fermentation. But the stock can be anything fermentable: yet in early 1900s during the Russian Japanese War the kvass process was first implied to sweetened black tea - thus the чайный гриб ("tea mushroom/fungus") was created, a popular Russian beverage, though completely off period.

          Hope that helps.


          Пятница, 29 марта 2013, 8:45 +01:00 от "aldo" <turanomar@...>:

          >KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.
          >
          >From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
          >To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
          >
          >Greetings
          >
          >Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.
          >
          >Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.
          >
          >according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).
          >
          >Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.
          >
          >Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
          >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin
          >
          >Hope that helps.
          >
          >Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
          >>
          >>
          >>Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
          >>· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
          >>· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
          >>· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
          >>· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
          >>· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
          >>· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
          >>o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
          >>o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
          >>o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
          >>
          >>If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
          >>
          >>-Halbrust
          >>
          >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joseph Belcher
          Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research. The two main sources I have used so
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

            The two main sources I have used so far are:
            · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
            · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

            -Halbrust


            -----Original Message-----
            From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


            Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
            rink? I know that others are interested.
            I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
            t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
            ource?
            Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

            hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
            lovo as well. :)
            Paul

            n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
            > **

            Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
            � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
            � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
            � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
            � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
            � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
            � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
            o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
            different name)
            o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
            o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
            the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

            If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
            appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
            thing.

            -Halbrust

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            ------------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links
            Individual Email | Traditional
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tim Nalley
            Halbrust-   Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon  test batches of
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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              Halbrust-
                Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon  test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
              'dok


              From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

              -------- Original message --------
              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
              From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              CC:


              Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

              The two main sources I have used so far are:
              · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
              · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

              -Halbrust

              -----Original Message-----
              From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
              To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

              Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
              rink? I know that others are interested.
              I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
              t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
              ource?
              Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

              hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
              lovo as well. :)
              Paul

              n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
              > **

              Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
              � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
              � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
              � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
              � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
              � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
              � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
              o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
              different name)
              o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
              o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
              the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

              If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
              appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
              thing.

              -Halbrust

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              ------------------------------------
              Yahoo! Groups Links
              Individual Email | Traditional
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joseph Belcher
              I am a brewer. This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya. -Halbrust ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                I am a brewer.
                This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                -Halbrust

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                Halbrust-
                Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                'dok

                From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                -------- Original message --------
                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                CC:

                Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                The two main sources I have used so far are:
                · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                -Halbrust

                -----Original Message-----
                From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                rink? I know that others are interested.
                I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                ource?
                Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                lovo as well. :)
                Paul

                n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                > **

                Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                different name)
                o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                thing.

                -Halbrust

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links
                Individual Email | Traditional
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tim Nalley
                Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out? dok From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. ... Subject: Re: [sig]
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                  Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out?
                  'dok


                  From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                  -------- Original message --------
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                  From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  CC:


                  I am a brewer.
                  This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                  -Halbrust

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                  To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                  Halbrust-
                  Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                  'dok

                  From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                  -------- Original message --------
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                  From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  CC:

                  Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                  The two main sources I have used so far are:
                  · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                  · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                  -Halbrust

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                  To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                  Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                  rink? I know that others are interested.
                  I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                  t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                  ource?
                  Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                  hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                  lovo as well. :)
                  Paul

                  n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                  > **

                  Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                  � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                  � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                  � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                  � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                  � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                  � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                  o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                  different name)
                  o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                  o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                  the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                  If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                  appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                  thing.

                  -Halbrust

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                  Individual Email | Traditional
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tim Nalley
                  Btw, I m doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples? dok From my
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                    Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                    'dok


                    From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                    -------- Original message --------
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                    From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    CC:


                    I am a brewer.
                    This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                    -Halbrust

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                    To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                    Halbrust-
                    Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                    'dok

                    From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                    -------- Original message --------
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                    From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    CC:

                    Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                    The two main sources I have used so far are:
                    · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                    · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                    -Halbrust

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                    To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                    Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                    rink? I know that others are interested.
                    I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                    t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                    ource?
                    Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                    hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                    lovo as well. :)
                    Paul

                    n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                    > **

                    Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                    � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                    � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                    � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                    � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                    � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                    � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                    o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                    different name)
                    o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                    o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                    the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                    If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                    appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                    thing.

                    -Halbrust

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                    Individual Email | Traditional
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tim Nalley
                    Just ordered a copy of Culinaria Russia! Any ideas where a copy of R. Roberts hop paper could be acquired? I just built a hop yard for my mundane brewing and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Just ordered a copy of Culinaria Russia! Any ideas where a copy of R. Roberts hop paper could be acquired? I just built a hop yard for my mundane brewing and would love to expand it in future days! Thanks!
                      -dok


                      From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                      -------- Original message --------
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                      From: aldo <turanomar@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      CC:

                      One of my source for such topics which I may suggest is:

                      CULINARIA RUSSIA, by Marion TRUTTER (edit.) Tandem Verlag GmbH 2006

                      Some more:

                      Food Culture in Russia and Central Asia, by Glenn R. Mack & Asele Surina,
                      Westport Conn. 2005
                      V. Pohliobkin - Nacional'nye kuhni nasih narodov, Moskva 2009

                      As far as Humulus lupulus (hop) is concerned the sole study (complete and
                      fully documented) is R. Kobert's thereupon (Dorpat Univ.). The first peoples
                      to use hop to give a new taste to beer were the Finno-ugrians of the Upper
                      Volga-Kama while this use firstly appeared in Western Europe roughly by the
                      Barbarians epoch (AD VIII cent.). HUMULUS which was the Latin name for Hop
                      comes from Tchuvash hemla, Finn. humala Hung. komlò and still today the
                      European largest exporter of Hop for beer is the Republic of Tscuvasha not
                      far from Moscow.
                      Could it be of any use to u?

                      -----Messaggio originale-----
                      From: goldschp tds.net
                      Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 4:35 AM
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                      Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                      drink? I know that others are interested.

                      I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                      it existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                      source?

                      Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                      Thanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                      Slovo as well. :)

                      Paul

                      On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:

                      > **
                      >
                      > Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                      > · Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                      > · Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                      > · Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                      > · Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                      > · Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                      > · Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                      > o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                      > different name)
                      > o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                      > o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                      > the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
                      >
                      > If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                      > appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                      > thing.
                      >
                      > -Halbrust
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joseph Belcher
                      OF COURSE! ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        OF COURSE!



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:18 pm
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                        Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out?
                        'dok

                        From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                        -------- Original message --------
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                        From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        CC:

                        I am a brewer.
                        This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                        -Halbrust

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                        Halbrust-
                        Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                        'dok

                        From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                        -------- Original message --------
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                        From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        CC:

                        Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                        The two main sources I have used so far are:
                        · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                        · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                        -Halbrust

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                        Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                        rink? I know that others are interested.
                        I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                        t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                        ource?
                        Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                        hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                        lovo as well. :)
                        Paul

                        n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                        > **

                        Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                        � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                        � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                        � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                        � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                        � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                        � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                        o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                        different name)
                        o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                        o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                        the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                        If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                        appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                        thing.

                        -Halbrust

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                        Individual Email | Traditional
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Joseph Belcher
                        You have me intrigued... Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe? -Halbrust ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          You have me intrigued...
                          Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe?

                          -Halbrust

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                          To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:25 pm
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                          Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                          'dok

                          From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                          -------- Original message --------
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                          From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          CC:

                          I am a brewer.
                          This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                          -Halbrust

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                          To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                          Halbrust-
                          Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                          'dok

                          From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                          -------- Original message --------
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                          From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          CC:

                          Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                          The two main sources I have used so far are:
                          · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                          · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                          -Halbrust

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                          To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                          Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                          rink? I know that others are interested.
                          I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                          t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                          ource?
                          Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                          hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                          lovo as well. :)
                          Paul

                          n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                          > **

                          Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                          � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                          � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                          � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                          � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                          � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                          � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                          o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                          different name)
                          o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                          o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                          the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                          If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                          appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                          thing.

                          -Halbrust

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                          Individual Email | Traditional
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tim Nalley
                          Actually, thats what I wanted to chat about. My wife is an apothecaress in the society with a very respectable library of period english, german and arabic
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Actually, thats what I wanted to chat about. My wife is an apothecaress in the society with a very respectable library of period english, german and arabic sources,  but thats the furthest east. I myself have a library of brewing book rapidly gaining respectability, including a great starter book on brewing herbs whose main value is steering me clear of tragedy, until my learning curve reaches equilibrium with my drive. 
                                  Russian and E.E. herbs were to be my next google search and book purchase this weekend! Imagine my surprise!
                            'dok


                            From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                            -------- Original message --------
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                            From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            CC:


                            You have me intrigued...
                            Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe?

                            -Halbrust

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:25 pm
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                            Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                            'dok

                            From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                            -------- Original message --------
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                            From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            CC:

                            I am a brewer.
                            This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                            -Halbrust

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                            Halbrust-
                            Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                            'dok

                            From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                            -------- Original message --------
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                            From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            CC:

                            Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                            The two main sources I have used so far are:
                            · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                            · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                            -Halbrust

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                            Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                            rink? I know that others are interested.
                            I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                            t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                            ource?
                            Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                            hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                            lovo as well. :)
                            Paul

                            n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                            > **

                            Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                            � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                            � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                            � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                            � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                            � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                            � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                            o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                            different name)
                            o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                            o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                            the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                            If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                            appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                            thing.

                            -Halbrust

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            ------------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                            Individual Email | Traditional
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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