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Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 1 1th century

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name  belonged  to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 28, 2013
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      Greetings

      Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name  belonged  to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead  (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.

      Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.

      according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).

      Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was  originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.


      Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin

      Hope that helps.



      Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>:

      >
      >Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
      >· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
      >· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
      >· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
      >· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
      >· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
      >· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
      >o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
      >o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
      >o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
      >
      >If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
      >
      >-Halbrust
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • aldo
      One of my source for such topics which I may suggest is: CULINARIA RUSSIA, by Marion TRUTTER (edit.) Tandem Verlag GmbH 2006 Some more: Food Culture in Russia
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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        One of my source for such topics which I may suggest is:

        CULINARIA RUSSIA, by Marion TRUTTER (edit.) Tandem Verlag GmbH 2006

        Some more:

        Food Culture in Russia and Central Asia, by Glenn R. Mack & Asele Surina,
        Westport Conn. 2005
        V. Pohliobkin - Nacional'nye kuhni nasih narodov, Moskva 2009

        As far as Humulus lupulus (hop) is concerned the sole study (complete and
        fully documented) is R. Kobert's thereupon (Dorpat Univ.). The first peoples
        to use hop to give a new taste to beer were the Finno-ugrians of the Upper
        Volga-Kama while this use firstly appeared in Western Europe roughly by the
        Barbarians epoch (AD VIII cent.). HUMULUS which was the Latin name for Hop
        comes from Tchuvash hemla, Finn. humala Hung. komlò and still today the
        European largest exporter of Hop for beer is the Republic of Tscuvasha not
        far from Moscow.
        Could it be of any use to u?

        -----Messaggio originale-----
        From: goldschp tds.net
        Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 4:35 AM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

        Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
        drink? I know that others are interested.

        I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
        it existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
        source?

        Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?


        Thanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
        Slovo as well. :)

        Paul


        On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        > Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
        > · Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
        > · Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
        > · Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
        > · Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
        > · Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
        > · Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
        > o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
        > different name)
        > o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
        > o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does
        > the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
        >
        > If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
        > appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
        > thing.
        >
        > -Halbrust
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

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      • aldo
        KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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          KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.

          From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


          Greetings

          Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.

          Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.

          according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).

          Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.

          Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin

          Hope that helps.

          Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
          >
          >
          >Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
          >· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
          >· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
          >· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
          >· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
          >· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
          >· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
          >o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
          >o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
          >o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
          >
          >If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
          >
          >-Halbrust
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • aldo
          I should add that all alcoholic drinks were strictly in relation with religious festivals as over alcohol U COULD CONNECT URSELF with the gods. Jordanes tells
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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            I should add that all alcoholic drinks were strictly in relation with religious festivals as over alcohol U COULD CONNECT URSELF with the gods. Jordanes tells us that Baltic peoples used MEDUS (even today the name for MEAD remained unchanged in Latvian) and Slavs MIOD but, as we know from other sources, in the countryside (today is still so) no drink was used at everyday meals, let alone water. MIOD was a “magic” drink and THEREFORE required to be spawned in order to start fermentation. Beer istead started fermentation “by itself” letting it stand the night over in an opened container during the “good” season. The Vikings used to take over with them in their raids a bucket with the socalled mother-of-beer i.e. fermenting barley dough to make OLUT or Ale.

            From: aldo
            Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 8:45 AM
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


            KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.

            From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
            Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
            To: mailto:sig%40yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

            Greetings

            Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.

            Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.

            according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).

            Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.

            Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin

            Hope that helps.

            Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
            >
            >
            >Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
            >· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
            >· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
            >· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
            >· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
            >· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
            >· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
            >o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
            >o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
            >o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
            >
            >If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
            >
            >-Halbrust
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
            Greetings! Not exactly so.
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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              Greetings!

              Not exactly so.
              http://fasmer-dictionary.info/%D0%AD%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8C_%D0%A4%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0/5594/%D0%9A%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%81 (the page is in Russian)
              Kvas was simply anything sour/fermented - even sour tanning agent was called усмяный квас Usmiany Kvas (usma = leather). So, when fermentation was applied to bread/grain, it made bread kvass. Vassmer just stated the _relation_ of the word Kvass to the Latin word "cheese" and Albanian "sour shep milk", but other related words have more to do with a (wedding) feast.

              Imho, the misinterpretation comes mostly from the dual biology of fermentatin process: it involves microbial flora of both alcoholic fermentation and lactic acid fermentation. But the stock can be anything fermentable: yet in early 1900s during the Russian Japanese War the kvass process was first implied to sweetened black tea - thus the чайный гриб ("tea mushroom/fungus") was created, a popular Russian beverage, though completely off period.

              Hope that helps.


              Пятница, 29 марта 2013, 8:45 +01:00 от "aldo" <turanomar@...>:

              >KVAS according to Max Vassmer (Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language) in related with sour milk (think! with Latin Caseus i.e. cheese) and therefore must have steppic origins even tho it is not made with milk any longer.
              >
              >From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
              >Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 6:55 AM
              >To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
              >
              >Greetings
              >
              >Kvass wqas originally referred to as an alcoholiuc drink, tyhough the name belonged to two diferent versions of teh drink: a mild alcoholic drink and a strong one. BTW, in off-period traditional Russian culture drinking kvass was ever perceived as having a beverage, while drinking pivo and (especially) mead (and vodka) was restricted to festivities' time.
              >
              >Unhopped beer indeed was refered to as braga, now the term means distiollation feed stock mostly.
              >
              >according to Pokhlyobkin (History of Vodka), the occurrence of the word pivo does not necessarily mean beer. The thing is that пиво (pivo) has the same root with пить (to drink). The same thing happens in modern English with the noun and the verb -drink-. So he claims that in 10-11 centuries they referred to pivo, meaning anything to drink. In the first Russian translation of the New Testament, the adjective пивный (pivny) meant simply "drinkable" (John, 4:11; 6:55).
              >
              >Also, the biblical word sikera came into use in the time referred; it was basically the Aramaic for 'any fermented beverage excluding wine'; the word came into practice from the first translations from the Old and New Testament. Along with sikera, siker also was used, but according to Pokhlyobkin (referrring to various sources), while sikera was originally the Aramaic and Ancient Hebrew for "fermented drink" (and, borrowed from them, the Greek for "any huff cap'), Siker was the original name for date vodka distilled in the Middle East. The word became extinct by the end of period, though the word sikera was still used in the Russian translation of Luther's Theses (I shall not drink wine and strong wine) in 1520.
              >
              >Most of the abovementioned is the compilation of Pokhlyobkin's History of Vodka, part 1, chapter 1.2 "Alcoholic drinks-related terms in Russia 9-14 centuries"
              >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Pokhlyobkin
              >
              >Hope that helps.
              >
              >Четверг, 28 марта 2013, 19:18 -04:00 от Joseph Belcher <mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com>:
              >>
              >>
              >>Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
              >>· Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
              >>· Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
              >>· Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
              >>· Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
              >>· Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
              >>· Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
              >>o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a different name)
              >>o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
              >>o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
              >>
              >>If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great thing.
              >>
              >>-Halbrust
              >>
              >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >>
              >>
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joseph Belcher
              Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research. The two main sources I have used so
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                The two main sources I have used so far are:
                · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                -Halbrust


                -----Original Message-----
                From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century


                Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                rink? I know that others are interested.
                I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                ource?
                Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                lovo as well. :)
                Paul

                n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                > **

                Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                different name)
                o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                thing.

                -Halbrust

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------
                Yahoo! Groups Links
                Individual Email | Traditional
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tim Nalley
                Halbrust-   Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon  test batches of
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                  Halbrust-
                    Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon  test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                  'dok


                  From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                  -------- Original message --------
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                  From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  CC:


                  Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                  The two main sources I have used so far are:
                  · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                  · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                  -Halbrust

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                  To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                  Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                  rink? I know that others are interested.
                  I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                  t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                  ource?
                  Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                  hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                  lovo as well. :)
                  Paul

                  n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                  > **

                  Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                  � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                  � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                  � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                  � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                  � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                  � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                  o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                  different name)
                  o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                  o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                  the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                  If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                  appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                  thing.

                  -Halbrust

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                  Individual Email | Traditional
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joseph Belcher
                  I am a brewer. This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya. -Halbrust ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                    I am a brewer.
                    This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                    -Halbrust

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                    To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                    Halbrust-
                    Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                    'dok

                    From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                    -------- Original message --------
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                    From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    CC:

                    Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                    The two main sources I have used so far are:
                    · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                    · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                    -Halbrust

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                    To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                    Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                    rink? I know that others are interested.
                    I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                    t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                    ource?
                    Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                    hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                    lovo as well. :)
                    Paul

                    n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                    > **

                    Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                    � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                    � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                    � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                    � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                    � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                    � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                    o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                    different name)
                    o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                    o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                    the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                    If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                    appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                    thing.

                    -Halbrust

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ------------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                    Individual Email | Traditional
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tim Nalley
                    Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out? dok From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network. ... Subject: Re: [sig]
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                    • 0 Attachment
                      Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out?
                      'dok


                      From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                      -------- Original message --------
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                      From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      CC:


                      I am a brewer.
                      This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                      -Halbrust

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                      To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                      Halbrust-
                      Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                      'dok

                      From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                      -------- Original message --------
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                      From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      CC:

                      Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                      The two main sources I have used so far are:
                      · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                      · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                      -Halbrust

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                      To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                      Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                      rink? I know that others are interested.
                      I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                      t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                      ource?
                      Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                      hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                      lovo as well. :)
                      Paul

                      n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                      > **

                      Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                      � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                      � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                      � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                      � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                      � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                      � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                      o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                      different name)
                      o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                      o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                      the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                      If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                      appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                      thing.

                      -Halbrust

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ------------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                      Individual Email | Traditional
                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tim Nalley
                      Btw, I m doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples? dok From my
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                        Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                        'dok


                        From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                        -------- Original message --------
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                        From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        CC:


                        I am a brewer.
                        This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                        -Halbrust

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                        Halbrust-
                        Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                        'dok

                        From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                        -------- Original message --------
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                        From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        CC:

                        Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                        The two main sources I have used so far are:
                        · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                        · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                        -Halbrust

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                        Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                        rink? I know that others are interested.
                        I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                        t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                        ource?
                        Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                        hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                        lovo as well. :)
                        Paul

                        n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                        > **

                        Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                        � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                        � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                        � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                        � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                        � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                        � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                        o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                        different name)
                        o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                        o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                        the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                        If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                        appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                        thing.

                        -Halbrust

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        ------------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                        Individual Email | Traditional
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tim Nalley
                        Just ordered a copy of Culinaria Russia! Any ideas where a copy of R. Roberts hop paper could be acquired? I just built a hop yard for my mundane brewing and
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                          Just ordered a copy of Culinaria Russia! Any ideas where a copy of R. Roberts hop paper could be acquired? I just built a hop yard for my mundane brewing and would love to expand it in future days! Thanks!
                          -dok


                          From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                          -------- Original message --------
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                          From: aldo <turanomar@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          CC:

                          One of my source for such topics which I may suggest is:

                          CULINARIA RUSSIA, by Marion TRUTTER (edit.) Tandem Verlag GmbH 2006

                          Some more:

                          Food Culture in Russia and Central Asia, by Glenn R. Mack & Asele Surina,
                          Westport Conn. 2005
                          V. Pohliobkin - Nacional'nye kuhni nasih narodov, Moskva 2009

                          As far as Humulus lupulus (hop) is concerned the sole study (complete and
                          fully documented) is R. Kobert's thereupon (Dorpat Univ.). The first peoples
                          to use hop to give a new taste to beer were the Finno-ugrians of the Upper
                          Volga-Kama while this use firstly appeared in Western Europe roughly by the
                          Barbarians epoch (AD VIII cent.). HUMULUS which was the Latin name for Hop
                          comes from Tchuvash hemla, Finn. humala Hung. komlò and still today the
                          European largest exporter of Hop for beer is the Republic of Tscuvasha not
                          far from Moscow.
                          Could it be of any use to u?

                          -----Messaggio originale-----
                          From: goldschp tds.net
                          Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 4:35 AM
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                          Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                          drink? I know that others are interested.

                          I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                          it existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                          source?

                          Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                          Thanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                          Slovo as well. :)

                          Paul

                          On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          > Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                          > · Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                          > · Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                          > · Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                          > · Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                          > · Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                          > · Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                          > o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                          > different name)
                          > o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                          > o Siker is said to be a “virtual synonym” to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                          > the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)
                          >
                          > If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                          > appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                          > thing.
                          >
                          > -Halbrust
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Joseph Belcher
                          OF COURSE! ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                            OF COURSE!



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:18 pm
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                            Awesome! When you work it out and publish, can I try it out?
                            'dok

                            From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                            -------- Original message --------
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                            From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            CC:

                            I am a brewer.
                            This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                            -Halbrust

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                            Halbrust-
                            Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                            'dok

                            From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                            -------- Original message --------
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                            From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            CC:

                            Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                            The two main sources I have used so far are:
                            · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                            · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                            -Halbrust

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                            To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                            Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                            Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                            rink? I know that others are interested.
                            I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                            t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                            ource?
                            Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                            hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                            lovo as well. :)
                            Paul

                            n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                            > **

                            Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                            � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                            � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                            � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                            � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                            � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                            � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                            o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                            different name)
                            o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                            o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                            the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                            If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                            appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                            thing.

                            -Halbrust

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            ------------------------------------
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                            Individual Email | Traditional
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Joseph Belcher
                            You have me intrigued... Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe? -Halbrust ... From: Tim Nalley To: sig
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                              You have me intrigued...
                              Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe?

                              -Halbrust

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                              To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:25 pm
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century




                              Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                              'dok

                              From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                              -------- Original message --------
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                              From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              CC:

                              I am a brewer.
                              This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                              -Halbrust

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                              To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                              Halbrust-
                              Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                              'dok

                              From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                              -------- Original message --------
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                              From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              CC:

                              Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                              The two main sources I have used so far are:
                              · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                              · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                              -Halbrust

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                              To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                              Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                              rink? I know that others are interested.
                              I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                              t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                              ource?
                              Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                              hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                              lovo as well. :)
                              Paul

                              n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                              > **

                              Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                              � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                              � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                              � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                              � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                              � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                              � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                              o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                              different name)
                              o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                              o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                              the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                              If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                              appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                              thing.

                              -Halbrust

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              ------------------------------------
                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                              Individual Email | Traditional
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Tim Nalley
                              Actually, thats what I wanted to chat about. My wife is an apothecaress in the society with a very respectable library of period english, german and arabic
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 29, 2013
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                                Actually, thats what I wanted to chat about. My wife is an apothecaress in the society with a very respectable library of period english, german and arabic sources,  but thats the furthest east. I myself have a library of brewing book rapidly gaining respectability, including a great starter book on brewing herbs whose main value is steering me clear of tragedy, until my learning curve reaches equilibrium with my drive. 
                                      Russian and E.E. herbs were to be my next google search and book purchase this weekend! Imagine my surprise!
                                'dok


                                From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                                -------- Original message --------
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                                From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                CC:


                                You have me intrigued...
                                Are you using herbs that grow naturally in Eastern Europe?

                                -Halbrust

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 12:25 pm
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                                Btw, I'm doing small batch research next month using herbs as bittering, flavoring and aroma agents, no hops. Want my research and samples?
                                'dok

                                From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                                -------- Original message --------
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                                From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                CC:

                                I am a brewer.
                                This research is for a particular drink served by Grand Prince Vladiir to Dobrynya.

                                -Halbrust

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
                                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Fri, Mar 29, 2013 11:37 am
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                                Halbrust-
                                Are you also a brewer? Sometime this coming month and into this summer I was going to integrate some experimental one gallon test batches of unhopped beer into my normal brewing schedule! Maybe we could collaborate, like a brewing double blind? I was planning ales for ease but lack a bread shed for natural yeasting. I would love to aid you in your research, which is very cool, and pursue my own passion for brewing.
                                'dok

                                From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.

                                -------- Original message --------
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century
                                From: Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                CC:

                                Thank you to EVERYONE who replied!!! I will take your info and your sources into consideration as I continue my research.

                                The two main sources I have used so far are:
                                · Christian, David. 'Living Water' : Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation: Vodka and Russian Society on the Eve of Emancipation. Oxford University Press, 1990
                                · Smith, Robert EF and Christian, David. Bread and Salt: A Social and Economic History of Food and Drink in Rusia. Cambridge University Press, 1984

                                -Halbrust

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: goldschp tds.net <goldschp@...>
                                To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thu, Mar 28, 2013 8:35 pm
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century

                                Very interesting summary. Where is you finding information on food and
                                rink? I know that others are interested.
                                I'm a little surprised on that early date on hopped beer. I realize that
                                t existed in the 11th century, but was it really that common? What's your
                                ource?
                                Is "privo" a misspelling for "pivo" (the modern word for beer)?

                                hanks for sharing this. I'll probably be begging you for an article for
                                lovo as well. :)
                                Paul

                                n Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Joseph Belcher <iegrappling@...> wrote:
                                > **

                                Per my research on alcohol in Russia in the 10th and 11th century:
                                � Kvas and mead were common drinks throughout the period
                                � Hopped beer was common in the 11th century
                                � Imported wine was drank, but it was a rarity
                                � Alcohol was taxed as early as the 11th century
                                � Med was the term for mead, as well as for honey
                                � Beer had many terms, and my sources do not overlap on terms
                                o Privo was the term for hopped beer (unsure if un-hopped beer had a
                                different name)
                                o Ol, oll, and olovina were hopped beers
                                o Siker is said to be a �virtual synonym� to ol, oll, and olovina (does
                                the word virtual possibly note that silker was un-hopped beer?)

                                If anyone can confirm or refute any of my findings, I would greatly
                                appreciate it. I will continue my research, but guidance is always a great
                                thing.

                                -Halbrust

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