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Re: [sig] Re: Czech name help

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  • Michael FitzGeoffrey
    Thank you so much. I definitely want to help this client with a *Czech* name, not a Russian one, but the resources you have shared do shed further light. Once
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 13 6:17 PM
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      Thank you so much. I definitely want to help this client with a *Czech* name,
      not a Russian one, but the resources you have shared do shed further light.
      Once I have had the time to thoroughly check them out, perhaps the right
      information will surface. Anyway, sincerely thanks for responding.

      YIS,
      *Michael FitzGeoffrey, Midhaven Pursuivant*

      On 13 September 2012 05:23, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > This doesn't help you, but I found an interesting resource: a list of
      > names in the back of the 13th century Codex Gigas, the names themselves are
      > dated to 1594.
      >
      > http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Browse-the-Manuscript/Namnlangd/?&mode=1&page=607#content(you have to zoom in a lot to see it.)
      > For more information, see:
      > http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/Additions/
      >
      > If it helps at all, the Chronica Bo��morum (Chronicle of Bohemians) seems
      > to be the earliest source for Libu��e, where it is spelled "Libussa".
      > In:
      > Berthold Bretholz. 1923. _Die Chronik der B��hmen des Cosmas von Prag_
      > (Berlin), the name index at the back has the Latin form "Lubossa"
      > http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00000683/images/index.html?id=00000683&fip=193.174.98.30&no=&seite=368
      >
      > Our Paul Wickenden of Thanet's _Dictionary of Period Russian Names_
      > mentions the same princess as:
      > Libusa (f) -- Libusa, daughter of Krok. 670. [Khr 250]
      > http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/l.html
      >
      > Makovi� ka is an interesting one... "Makovi� " seems awfully similar to a
      > patronymic like "Ma_r_kovi� " or "descendant of Marko".
      >
      > As is, in Paul's dictionary s.n.:
      > Makovich (Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117]
      > http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html
      > Which can be feminized to Makovich_a_ (instead of -ka).
      >
      > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So
      > possibly Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements
      > to be 300 years apart.
      >
      > There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
      > but may be too different from what the submitter wants.
      >
      > So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libu��e
      > Makovi� ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
      > sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
      > Malkicha>?
      >
      > Hope that helps, please correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree!
      >
      > ffride
      >
      > <<snip>>
      >
      > > My friends, I have a client who is seeking to register for her primary
      > > persona name *Libu��e Makovi� ka*. Mundanely, her grandmother���s surname
      > > is Makovi� ka, and we have found the name *Libu��e* is common enough in
      > the
      >
      > > modern age, and known to be the name of a princess in Bohemian legend.
      > <<snip>>
      >
      >
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    • Mary Stoughton
      ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name: Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of information
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 24 11:12 AM
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        ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name:
        Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of
        information brings me closer to my quest.

        Please forgive my lack of understanding, but when you said:

        The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
        Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
        300 years apart.

        There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
        but may be too different from what the submitter wants.

        So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libuše
        MakoviÄ ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
        sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
        Malkicha>?



        Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
        the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
        pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
        actually pronounced "ch-ka".

        Malk on the other hand means "weak". bla.

        I could not find:

        *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
        Dictionary.



        The 13th century Codex Gigas is so cool. Our Midhaven herald found old
        land records. I have not sadly taken the time to comb through them.

        I had heard of the Chronicle of Bohemians. A monk went about getting first
        hand accounts of the Czech history...as up to that time nothing had been
        written down.

        Thank-you so much for taking the time to write, sorry it took me so long to
        respond.

        Libuše Makovička
        Webminister,
        Shire of Midhaven <http://midhaven.antir.sca.org/>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jessica carlock
        so, Mach is a given name.. one of the options for turning it into a patronymic byname (name showing relationship) gives us Machovicha Libusa is fine as a
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 24 11:55 AM
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          so, 'Mach' is a given name.. one of the options for turning it into a
          patronymic byname (name showing relationship) gives us 'Machovicha'

          'Libusa' is fine as a given name, and actually the new rules (SENA) allow
          up to 500 years in the same naming group, which these are. So, Libusa
          Machovicha is a perfectly registerable russianized version.

          Marya Aestel

          On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Mary Stoughton <libuse.makovicka@...
          > wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name:
          > Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of
          > information brings me closer to my quest.
          >
          > Please forgive my lack of understanding, but when you said:
          >
          > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
          > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
          > 300 years apart.
          >
          > There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
          > but may be too different from what the submitter wants.
          >
          > So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libuše
          > MakoviÄ ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
          > sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
          > Malkicha>?
          >
          > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
          > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
          > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
          > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
          >
          > Malk on the other hand means "weak". bla.
          >
          > I could not find:
          >
          > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
          > Dictionary.
          >
          > The 13th century Codex Gigas is so cool. Our Midhaven herald found old
          > land records. I have not sadly taken the time to comb through them.
          >
          > I had heard of the Chronicle of Bohemians. A monk went about getting first
          > hand accounts of the Czech history...as up to that time nothing had been
          > written down.
          >
          > Thank-you so much for taking the time to write, sorry it took me so long to
          > respond.
          >
          > Libuše Makovička
          > Webminister,
          > Shire of Midhaven <http://midhaven.antir.sca.org/>
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mary Stoughton
          Thank-you for responding, Marya. I am willing to go with a Russian name...but what I am after is Czech. * Is it common to see Russian surnames in the Czech
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 24 5:07 PM
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            Thank-you for responding, Marya.

            I am willing to go with a Russian name...but what I am after is Czech. * Is
            it common to see Russian surnames in the Czech Republic?*

            Secondly, Libuse was a Czech Princess (myth or real is a matter of
            opinion)...somehow I need to see Libuse or Libusa or Liboosa *being used
            amongst the common population* within 500 years (I am very glad for the
            new SENA rules!) of my surname.

            Am I correct in my assumption?
            Thank-you all for your time,
            Mary


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Michael FitzGeoffrey
            It s not a matter of the name being used by COMMON people so much as that it was used among actual humans (as opposed to legendary/mythical/fictional
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 24 6:20 PM
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              It's not a matter of the name being used by COMMON people so much as that
              it was used among actual humans (as opposed to legendary/mythical/fictional
              characters).

              - *Michael*
              *
              **Given in loyal service by mine own hand and seal this 24 day of
              September, A.S. XLVII, I am
              *
              *Lord Michael FitzGeoffrey, GdS, OLM, **Midhaven Pursuivant*
              *
              *

              http://wiki.antir.sca.org/index.php?title=Michael_FitzGeoffrey
              http://www.michaelfitzgeoffrey.blogspot.com/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Quokkaqueen
              Hi Libusa and everyone else! ... SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I m obsessing over 300
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 25 3:05 PM
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                Hi Libusa and everyone else!

                <<snip>>
                > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
                > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
                > > 300 years apart.
                <<snip>>

                SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess. So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300 years difference between them.

                <<snip>>
                > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
                > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                <<snip>>

                As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change pronunciation anyway.
                The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as figure out how to form the byname correctly.

                <<snip>>
                > > I could not find:
                > >
                > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                > > Dictionary.
                <<snip>>

                Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html

                Good luck!

                ffride
              • John Staeck
                In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization.  The KA ending is one such form
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 25 6:11 PM
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                  In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization.  The "KA" ending is one such form in Czech, as can be KO. An example would be Jiri (George) becoming Jirko, or a different Czech system changes Pavel to Paveli.   It is unclear if there is some form of diminutive at work over the years or not here, I do not pretend to be an expert.  It is something to watch out for, though.

                  Pax - Janos/John  aka (to his grandparents) as Janci (Yan-chee) (which is one such diminutive in Hungarian)



                  ________________________________
                  From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:05 PM
                  Subject: [sig] Re: Czech name help


                   
                  Hi Libusa and everyone else!

                  <<snip>>
                  > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
                  > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
                  > > 300 years apart.
                  <<snip>>

                  SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess. So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300 years difference between them.

                  <<snip>>
                  > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
                  > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                  > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                  > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                  <<snip>>

                  As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change pronunciation anyway.
                  The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as figure out how to form the byname correctly.

                  <<snip>>
                  > > I could not find:
                  > >
                  > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                  > > Dictionary.
                  <<snip>>

                  Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html

                  Good luck!

                  ffride




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mary Stoughton
                  I heard my Grandfather Americanized the pronounciation of Makovička. From Mauk-o-vichka to Mak-o-vicka. His friends called him Mak. There are so many
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 26 11:07 AM
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                    I heard my Grandfather Americanized the pronounciation of Makovička. From
                    Mauk-o-vichka to Mak-o-vicka. His friends called him Mak. There are so
                    many Makovickas in the Czech Republic, I dont think he changed the
                    spelling.

                    That aside, from what you are saying Janis, the root of my Grandfathers
                    name is Makovi? Then the Ka is added as an endearment or familiarity?

                    Libuše/Mary

                    On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM, John Staeck <avarjanos@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a
                    > diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization. The "KA"
                    > ending is one such form in Czech, as can be KO. An example would be Jiri
                    > (George) becoming Jirko, or a different Czech system changes Pavel to
                    > Paveli. It is unclear if there is some form of diminutive at work over
                    > the years or not here, I do not pretend to be an expert. It is something
                    > to watch out for, though.
                    >
                    > Pax - Janos/John aka (to his grandparents) as Janci (Yan-chee) (which is
                    > one such diminutive in Hungarian)
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                    > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:05 PM
                    > Subject: [sig] Re: Czech name help
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Libusa and everyone else!
                    >
                    > <<snip>>
                    > > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So
                    > possibly
                    > > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to
                    > be
                    > > > 300 years apart.
                    > <<snip>>
                    >
                    > SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The
                    > reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows
                    > up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess.
                    > So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300
                    > years difference between them.
                    >
                    > <<snip>>
                    > > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common
                    > practice in
                    > > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                    > > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                    >
                    > > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                    > <<snip>>
                    >
                    > As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't
                    > formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be
                    > Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change
                    > pronunciation anyway.
                    > The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated
                    > instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as
                    > figure out how to form the byname correctly.
                    >
                    > <<snip>>
                    > > > I could not find:
                    > > >
                    > > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                    > > > Dictionary.
                    > <<snip>>
                    >
                    > Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html
                    >
                    > Good luck!
                    >
                    > ffride
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


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