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Czech name help

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  • Michael FitzGeoffrey
    Greetings unto the Slavic Interest Group, My friends, I have a client who is seeking to register for her primary persona name *Libuše Makovička*. Mundanely,
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 8, 2012
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      Greetings unto the Slavic Interest Group,

      My friends, I have a client who is seeking to register for her primary
      persona name *Libuše Makovička*. Mundanely, her grandmother’s surname
      is Makovička, and we have found the name *Libuše* is common enough in the
      modern age, and known to be the name of a princess in Bohemian legend. The
      best translation I have of Libuše is some form of *love*, and Makovička
      translates to *poppy head*. Makovička is found at
      http://zlimpkk.tripod.com/Genealogy/czechsurnames.html, among another
      place, that I can't recall at the moment.

      Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately, I don't read
      Czech.

      *Given in loyal service by mine own hand and seal this eighth day of
      September, A.S. XLVII, I am
      *
      *Lord Michael FitzGeoffrey, GdS, OLM, **Midhaven Pursuivant-of-Arms*
      *
      *

      http://wiki.antir.sca.org/index.php?title=Michael_FitzGeoffrey
      http://www.michaelfitzgeoffrey.blogspot.com/


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Quokkaqueen
      This doesn t help you, but I found an interesting resource: a list of names in the back of the 13th century Codex Gigas, the names themselves are dated to
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 13, 2012
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        This doesn't help you, but I found an interesting resource: a list of names in the back of the 13th century Codex Gigas, the names themselves are dated to 1594.
        http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Browse-the-Manuscript/Namnlangd/?&mode=1&page=607#content (you have to zoom in a lot to see it.)
        For more information, see: http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/Additions/

        If it helps at all, the Chronica Boëmorum (Chronicle of Bohemians) seems to be the earliest source for Libuše, where it is spelled "Libussa".
        In:
        Berthold Bretholz. 1923. _Die Chronik der Böhmen des Cosmas von Prag_ (Berlin), the name index at the back has the Latin form "Lubossa" http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00000683/images/index.html?id=00000683&fip=193.174.98.30&no=&seite=368

        Our Paul Wickenden of Thanet's _Dictionary of Period Russian Names_ mentions the same princess as:
        Libusa (f) -- Libusa, daughter of Krok. 670. [Khr 250]
        http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/l.html

        Makovička is an interesting one... "Makovič" seems awfully similar to a patronymic like "Ma_r_kovič" or "descendant of Marko".

        As is, in Paul's dictionary s.n.:
        Makovich (Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117]
        http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html
        Which can be feminized to Makovich_a_ (instead of -ka).

        The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be 300 years apart.

        There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years, but may be too different from what the submitter wants.

        So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libuše Makovička>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from, sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa Malkicha>?

        Hope that helps, please correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree!

        ffride

        <<snip>>
        > My friends, I have a client who is seeking to register for her primary
        > persona name *Libuše Makovička*. Mundanely, her grandmother’s surname
        > is Makovička, and we have found the name *Libuše* is common enough in the
        > modern age, and known to be the name of a princess in Bohemian legend.
        <<snip>>
      • Michael FitzGeoffrey
        Thank you so much. I definitely want to help this client with a *Czech* name, not a Russian one, but the resources you have shared do shed further light. Once
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 13, 2012
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          Thank you so much. I definitely want to help this client with a *Czech* name,
          not a Russian one, but the resources you have shared do shed further light.
          Once I have had the time to thoroughly check them out, perhaps the right
          information will surface. Anyway, sincerely thanks for responding.

          YIS,
          *Michael FitzGeoffrey, Midhaven Pursuivant*

          On 13 September 2012 05:23, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > This doesn't help you, but I found an interesting resource: a list of
          > names in the back of the 13th century Codex Gigas, the names themselves are
          > dated to 1594.
          >
          > http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Browse-the-Manuscript/Namnlangd/?&mode=1&page=607#content(you have to zoom in a lot to see it.)
          > For more information, see:
          > http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/Additions/
          >
          > If it helps at all, the Chronica Bo��morum (Chronicle of Bohemians) seems
          > to be the earliest source for Libu��e, where it is spelled "Libussa".
          > In:
          > Berthold Bretholz. 1923. _Die Chronik der B��hmen des Cosmas von Prag_
          > (Berlin), the name index at the back has the Latin form "Lubossa"
          > http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/bsb00000683/images/index.html?id=00000683&fip=193.174.98.30&no=&seite=368
          >
          > Our Paul Wickenden of Thanet's _Dictionary of Period Russian Names_
          > mentions the same princess as:
          > Libusa (f) -- Libusa, daughter of Krok. 670. [Khr 250]
          > http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/l.html
          >
          > Makovi� ka is an interesting one... "Makovi� " seems awfully similar to a
          > patronymic like "Ma_r_kovi� " or "descendant of Marko".
          >
          > As is, in Paul's dictionary s.n.:
          > Makovich (Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117]
          > http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html
          > Which can be feminized to Makovich_a_ (instead of -ka).
          >
          > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So
          > possibly Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements
          > to be 300 years apart.
          >
          > There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
          > but may be too different from what the submitter wants.
          >
          > So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libu��e
          > Makovi� ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
          > sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
          > Malkicha>?
          >
          > Hope that helps, please correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree!
          >
          > ffride
          >
          > <<snip>>
          >
          > > My friends, I have a client who is seeking to register for her primary
          > > persona name *Libu��e Makovi� ka*. Mundanely, her grandmother���s surname
          > > is Makovi� ka, and we have found the name *Libu��e* is common enough in
          > the
          >
          > > modern age, and known to be the name of a princess in Bohemian legend.
          > <<snip>>
          >
          >
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        • Mary Stoughton
          ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name: Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of information
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 24, 2012
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            ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name:
            Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of
            information brings me closer to my quest.

            Please forgive my lack of understanding, but when you said:

            The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
            Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
            300 years apart.

            There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
            but may be too different from what the submitter wants.

            So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libuše
            MakoviÄ ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
            sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
            Malkicha>?



            Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
            the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
            pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
            actually pronounced "ch-ka".

            Malk on the other hand means "weak". bla.

            I could not find:

            *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
            Dictionary.



            The 13th century Codex Gigas is so cool. Our Midhaven herald found old
            land records. I have not sadly taken the time to comb through them.

            I had heard of the Chronicle of Bohemians. A monk went about getting first
            hand accounts of the Czech history...as up to that time nothing had been
            written down.

            Thank-you so much for taking the time to write, sorry it took me so long to
            respond.

            Libuše Makovička
            Webminister,
            Shire of Midhaven <http://midhaven.antir.sca.org/>


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jessica carlock
            so, Mach is a given name.. one of the options for turning it into a patronymic byname (name showing relationship) gives us Machovicha Libusa is fine as a
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 24, 2012
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              so, 'Mach' is a given name.. one of the options for turning it into a
              patronymic byname (name showing relationship) gives us 'Machovicha'

              'Libusa' is fine as a given name, and actually the new rules (SENA) allow
              up to 500 years in the same naming group, which these are. So, Libusa
              Machovicha is a perfectly registerable russianized version.

              Marya Aestel

              On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Mary Stoughton <libuse.makovicka@...
              > wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > ffride (Quokkaqueen), you posted some information to help me with my name:
              > Libuse Makovicka. I really appreciate your efforts, as each snippet of
              > information brings me closer to my quest.
              >
              > Please forgive my lack of understanding, but when you said:
              >
              > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
              > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
              > 300 years apart.
              >
              > There is also the earlier "Malk-" from 970, which is right on 300 years,
              > but may be too different from what the submitter wants.
              >
              > So <Libusa Machovicha> might be a Russian-ised medieval form of <Libuše
              > MakoviÄ ka>? (I cannot figure out where that final -ka syllable comes from,
              > sorry.) But for temporal consistency, she might have to try <Libusa
              > Malkicha>?
              >
              > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
              > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
              > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
              > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
              >
              > Malk on the other hand means "weak". bla.
              >
              > I could not find:
              >
              > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
              > Dictionary.
              >
              > The 13th century Codex Gigas is so cool. Our Midhaven herald found old
              > land records. I have not sadly taken the time to comb through them.
              >
              > I had heard of the Chronicle of Bohemians. A monk went about getting first
              > hand accounts of the Czech history...as up to that time nothing had been
              > written down.
              >
              > Thank-you so much for taking the time to write, sorry it took me so long to
              > respond.
              >
              > Libuše Makovička
              > Webminister,
              > Shire of Midhaven <http://midhaven.antir.sca.org/>
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mary Stoughton
              Thank-you for responding, Marya. I am willing to go with a Russian name...but what I am after is Czech. * Is it common to see Russian surnames in the Czech
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 24, 2012
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                Thank-you for responding, Marya.

                I am willing to go with a Russian name...but what I am after is Czech. * Is
                it common to see Russian surnames in the Czech Republic?*

                Secondly, Libuse was a Czech Princess (myth or real is a matter of
                opinion)...somehow I need to see Libuse or Libusa or Liboosa *being used
                amongst the common population* within 500 years (I am very glad for the
                new SENA rules!) of my surname.

                Am I correct in my assumption?
                Thank-you all for your time,
                Mary


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael FitzGeoffrey
                It s not a matter of the name being used by COMMON people so much as that it was used among actual humans (as opposed to legendary/mythical/fictional
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 24, 2012
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                  It's not a matter of the name being used by COMMON people so much as that
                  it was used among actual humans (as opposed to legendary/mythical/fictional
                  characters).

                  - *Michael*
                  *
                  **Given in loyal service by mine own hand and seal this 24 day of
                  September, A.S. XLVII, I am
                  *
                  *Lord Michael FitzGeoffrey, GdS, OLM, **Midhaven Pursuivant*
                  *
                  *

                  http://wiki.antir.sca.org/index.php?title=Michael_FitzGeoffrey
                  http://www.michaelfitzgeoffrey.blogspot.com/


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Quokkaqueen
                  Hi Libusa and everyone else! ... SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I m obsessing over 300
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 25, 2012
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                    Hi Libusa and everyone else!

                    <<snip>>
                    > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
                    > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
                    > > 300 years apart.
                    <<snip>>

                    SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess. So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300 years difference between them.

                    <<snip>>
                    > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
                    > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                    > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                    > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                    <<snip>>

                    As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change pronunciation anyway.
                    The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as figure out how to form the byname correctly.

                    <<snip>>
                    > > I could not find:
                    > >
                    > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                    > > Dictionary.
                    <<snip>>

                    Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html

                    Good luck!

                    ffride
                  • John Staeck
                    In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization.  The KA ending is one such form
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 25, 2012
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                      In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization.  The "KA" ending is one such form in Czech, as can be KO. An example would be Jiri (George) becoming Jirko, or a different Czech system changes Pavel to Paveli.   It is unclear if there is some form of diminutive at work over the years or not here, I do not pretend to be an expert.  It is something to watch out for, though.

                      Pax - Janos/John  aka (to his grandparents) as Janci (Yan-chee) (which is one such diminutive in Hungarian)



                      ________________________________
                      From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:05 PM
                      Subject: [sig] Re: Czech name help


                       
                      Hi Libusa and everyone else!

                      <<snip>>
                      > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So possibly
                      > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to be
                      > > 300 years apart.
                      <<snip>>

                      SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess. So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300 years difference between them.

                      <<snip>>
                      > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common practice in
                      > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                      > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                      > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                      <<snip>>

                      As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change pronunciation anyway.
                      The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as figure out how to form the byname correctly.

                      <<snip>>
                      > > I could not find:
                      > >
                      > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                      > > Dictionary.
                      <<snip>>

                      Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html

                      Good luck!

                      ffride




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mary Stoughton
                      I heard my Grandfather Americanized the pronounciation of Makovička. From Mauk-o-vichka to Mak-o-vicka. His friends called him Mak. There are so many
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 26, 2012
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                        I heard my Grandfather Americanized the pronounciation of Makovička. From
                        Mauk-o-vichka to Mak-o-vicka. His friends called him Mak. There are so
                        many Makovickas in the Czech Republic, I dont think he changed the
                        spelling.

                        That aside, from what you are saying Janis, the root of my Grandfathers
                        name is Makovi? Then the Ka is added as an endearment or familiarity?

                        Libuše/Mary

                        On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM, John Staeck <avarjanos@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > In Czech and other languages throughout the region, the use of a
                        > diminutive is sometimes added as a form of personalization. The "KA"
                        > ending is one such form in Czech, as can be KO. An example would be Jiri
                        > (George) becoming Jirko, or a different Czech system changes Pavel to
                        > Paveli. It is unclear if there is some form of diminutive at work over
                        > the years or not here, I do not pretend to be an expert. It is something
                        > to watch out for, though.
                        >
                        > Pax - Janos/John aka (to his grandparents) as Janci (Yan-chee) (which is
                        > one such diminutive in Hungarian)
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 5:05 PM
                        > Subject: [sig] Re: Czech name help
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Libusa and everyone else!
                        >
                        > <<snip>>
                        > > > The closest dated form I can see, to Libusa is "Mach", in 1052. So
                        > possibly
                        > > > Machovicha? But that is still 382 years apart. SENA wants elements to
                        > be
                        > > > 300 years apart.
                        > <<snip>>
                        >
                        > SENA is the abbreviation for the rules the SCA college of heralds use. The
                        > reason why I'm obsessing over 300 years is because although <Libusa> shows
                        > up in a Russian source, it is referring to a semi-legendary Czech princess.
                        > So while you can combine Czech and Russian under SENA,there can only be 300
                        > years difference between them.
                        >
                        > <<snip>>
                        > > > Are you combining the early Mach with -ovicha? Is that a common
                        > practice in
                        > > > the SCA?? I would rather go with a change in spelling, then a change in
                        > > > pronounciation. Machovicha is very close to Makovička..as the čka...is
                        >
                        > > > actually pronounced "ch-ka".
                        > <<snip>>
                        >
                        > As far as I am aware, Czech names are gender dependant. Makovic^ka isn't
                        > formed correctly for the modern language, at least. It probably should be
                        > Makovic^kova/, where the a/ is an a-acute. So you may need to change
                        > pronunciation anyway.
                        > The tricky thing, is that you either are going to need to find dated
                        > instances of both parts of the name in a Czech/Bohemian context, as well as
                        > figure out how to form the byname correctly.
                        >
                        > <<snip>>
                        > > > I could not find:
                        > > >
                        > > > *(Nikola Makovich Dragovich). 1454. [Mor 117] "* in Pauls Russian
                        > > > Dictionary.
                        > <<snip>>
                        >
                        > Under <Mak>, here: http://heraldry.sca.org/paul/ma.html
                        >
                        > Good luck!
                        >
                        > ffride
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >


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