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Re: SIG-related names, under new heraldic rules

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  • Patches the gypsy
    Silly question: Why is Romany listed in this group? Is it a reference to Romania or to gypsies? I ask because gypsy Romany is part of a different linguistic
    Message 1 of 16 , May 4, 2012
      Silly question:

      Why is Romany listed in this group? Is it a reference to Romania or to gypsies? I ask because gypsy Romany is part of a different linguistic group than the others and to list it as "Romany" can be confusing for members of one group when they are looking for the rules of another.

      Patches

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Patty <Patoodle@...> wrote:
      >
      > Labas! (Hello!)
      >
      > Your local friendly herald may not have told you this yet, but the SCA BoD just adopted a new set of heraldic Rules for Submissions (RfS). This is very new -- like within the last weekend or two. We're entering a phase where heraldic submissions can use either the old rules or the new rules, and then the new rules will reign supreme.
      >
      > The good news is that a couple of the appendices to the new RfS address some of the naming conventions for the countries included in SIG.
      >
      > Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixA) lists naming patterns by language group. In other words, did a particular group of closely related languages have patronymics, double given names, or locative bynames? Did the given name go first or last?
      >
      > Here are the language groups within SIG's purview (obviously there are others):
      >
      > Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian, etc.)
      > Hungarian/Romanian
      > Jewish
      > North Slavic (Polish, Czech)
      > Romany
      > Russian/East Slavic
      > South Slavic (Serbian, Croatian, etc.)
      >
      > Finnish is listed under Scandinavian -- I know we don't really talk about Finland on this list, but it does border on the Baltic lands and northern Rus.
      >
      > You can also take a look at Appendix C (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixC), which basically tells you how to "mix and match." You can take name elements from different languages within the same group as long as the name elements are not more than 500 years apart. If you take name elements from two different language groups, the name elements have to be documented to within 300 years of each other. There are other allowances and whatnot, but have your local herald explain them to you if necessary.
      >
      > I think we already get that we can't register names like "Kazimir mac Corwin," but Appendix C will help us deal when we find one name element in our persona's language but can't find the other name element in the same language. And Appendix A gives us some basic information about the structures of names in a language.
      >
      > If you have a beef with anything in this document ... hey, I'm just the messenger. Tell the heraldic officials of your Kingdom.
      >
      > I'm still digesting these new rules myself, so I'm no expert in them yet. I just happened to skim the rules and noticed the words "Baltic" and "Slavic" and stuff like that. :-)
      >
      > Yours in service,
      > Lady Patricia of Trakai
      > (using the legal-name and lingua-Anglica allowances)
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Patty
      Romany = gypsies in Appendix A (Romania is grouped with Hungary there). I added Romany to the list because some people have asked about Romany stuff on
      Message 2 of 16 , May 4, 2012
        "Romany" = "gypsies" in Appendix A (Romania is grouped with Hungary there). I added Romany to the list because some people have asked about Romany stuff on this list over the years.

        Here's what Appendix A has to say about Romany:

        "Romany are known to have used two names: a private name used only in their community, and a vernacular use name, used in interactions with locals. We do not currently have evidence of the elements or structure of private names before 1600; without such evidence they cannot be registered. In general, forming a name appropriate for the desired region/language where a Romany persona is living (e.g., "A from X") follows period usage."

        Were there Romany in Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages, or were they more in southern Europe?

        Cheers,
        Patricia



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Patches the gypsy <raelee@...>
        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, May 4, 2012 10:52 am
        Subject: [sig] Re: SIG-related names, under new heraldic rules


        Silly question:

        Why is Romany listed in this group? Is it a reference to Romania or to gypsies?
        I ask because gypsy Romany is part of a different linguistic group than the
        others and to list it as "Romany" can be confusing for members of one group when
        they are looking for the rules of another.

        Patches

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Patty <Patoodle@...> wrote:
        >
        > Labas! (Hello!)
        >
        > Your local friendly herald may not have told you this yet, but the SCA BoD
        just adopted a new set of heraldic Rules for Submissions (RfS). This is very new
        -- like within the last weekend or two. We're entering a phase where heraldic
        submissions can use either the old rules or the new rules, and then the new
        rules will reign supreme.
        >
        > The good news is that a couple of the appendices to the new RfS address some
        of the naming conventions for the countries included in SIG.
        >
        > Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixA)
        lists naming patterns by language group. In other words, did a particular group
        of closely related languages have patronymics, double given names, or locative
        bynames? Did the given name go first or last?
        >
        > Here are the language groups within SIG's purview (obviously there are
        others):
        >
        > Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian, etc.)
        > Hungarian/Romanian
        > Jewish
        > North Slavic (Polish, Czech)
        > Romany
        > Russian/East Slavic
        > South Slavic (Serbian, Croatian, etc.)
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Patches the gypsy
        They were there in later period (about 1400-1500s), but they were generally slaves. There may have been a handful of clans that kept their freedom by
        Message 3 of 16 , May 4, 2012
          They were there in later period (about 1400-1500s), but they were generally slaves. There may have been a handful of clans that kept their freedom by wandering around, but this has not been an accepted as a "confirmed" theory.

          Patches

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Patty <Patoodle@...> wrote:
          >
          > "Romany" = "gypsies" in Appendix A (Romania is grouped with Hungary there). I added Romany to the list because some people have asked about Romany stuff on this list over the years.
          >
          > Here's what Appendix A has to say about Romany:
          >
          > "Romany are known to have used two names: a private name used only in their community, and a vernacular use name, used in interactions with locals. We do not currently have evidence of the elements or structure of private names before 1600; without such evidence they cannot be registered. In general, forming a name appropriate for the desired region/language where a Romany persona is living (e.g., "A from X") follows period usage."
          >
          > Were there Romany in Eastern Europe during the Middle Ages, or were they more in southern Europe?
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Patricia
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Patches the gypsy <raelee@...>
          > To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Fri, May 4, 2012 10:52 am
          > Subject: [sig] Re: SIG-related names, under new heraldic rules
          >
          >
          > Silly question:
          >
          > Why is Romany listed in this group? Is it a reference to Romania or to gypsies?
          > I ask because gypsy Romany is part of a different linguistic group than the
          > others and to list it as "Romany" can be confusing for members of one group when
          > they are looking for the rules of another.
          >
          > Patches
          >
          > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Patty <Patoodle@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Labas! (Hello!)
          > >
          > > Your local friendly herald may not have told you this yet, but the SCA BoD
          > just adopted a new set of heraldic Rules for Submissions (RfS). This is very new
          > -- like within the last weekend or two. We're entering a phase where heraldic
          > submissions can use either the old rules or the new rules, and then the new
          > rules will reign supreme.
          > >
          > > The good news is that a couple of the appendices to the new RfS address some
          > of the naming conventions for the countries included in SIG.
          > >
          > > Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixA)
          > lists naming patterns by language group. In other words, did a particular group
          > of closely related languages have patronymics, double given names, or locative
          > bynames? Did the given name go first or last?
          > >
          > > Here are the language groups within SIG's purview (obviously there are
          > others):
          > >
          > > Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian, etc.)
          > > Hungarian/Romanian
          > > Jewish
          > > North Slavic (Polish, Czech)
          > > Romany
          > > Russian/East Slavic
          > > South Slavic (Serbian, Croatian, etc.)
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Sfandra
          *facepalm* Yeah, maybe this year I can get around to registering my name, armory, household name, and badge....   ... Sfandra ****************** Boiarynia
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4, 2012
            *facepalm*
            Yeah, maybe this year I can get around to registering my name, armory, household name, and badge....
             
            ---sheepishly (though there are no sheep in my armory)
            Sfandra

            ******************
            Boiarynia Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
            O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
            http://sfandra.webs.com
            Never 'pearl' your butt.
            ******************


            ________________________________
            From: Patty <Patoodle@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 10:46 PM
            Subject: [sig] SIG-related names, under new heraldic rules

            Labas! (Hello!)

            Your local friendly herald may not have told you this yet, but the SCA BoD just adopted a new set of heraldic Rules for Submissions (RfS). This is very new -- like within the last weekend or two. We're entering a phase where heraldic submissions can use either the old rules or the new rules, and then the new rules will reign supreme.

            The good news is that a couple of the appendices to the new RfS address some of the naming conventions for the countries included in SIG.

            Appendix A (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixA) lists naming patterns by language group. In other words, did a particular group of closely related languages have patronymics, double given names, or locative bynames? Did the given name go first or last?

            Here are the language groups within SIG's purview (obviously there are others):

            Baltic (Lithuanian, Latvian, etc.)
            Hungarian/Romanian
            Jewish
            North Slavic (Polish, Czech)
            Romany
            Russian/East Slavic
            South Slavic (Serbian, Croatian, etc.)

            Finnish is listed under Scandinavian -- I know we don't really talk about Finland on this list, but it does border on the Baltic lands and northern Rus.

            You can also take a look at Appendix C (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs_final_draft.html#AppendixC), which basically tells you how to "mix and match." You can take name elements from different languages within the same group as long as the name elements are not more than 500 years apart. If you take name elements from two different language groups, the name elements have to be documented to within 300 years of each other. There are other allowances and whatnot, but have your local herald explain them to you if necessary.

            I think we already get that we can't register names like "Kazimir mac Corwin," but Appendix C will help us deal when we find one name element in our persona's language but can't find the other name element in the same language. And Appendix A gives us some basic information about the structures of names in a language.

            If you have a beef with anything in this document ... hey, I'm just the messenger. Tell the heraldic officials of your Kingdom.

            I'm still digesting these new rules myself, so I'm no expert in them yet. I just happened to skim the rules and noticed the words "Baltic" and "Slavic" and stuff like that. :-)

            Yours in service,
            Lady Patricia of Trakai
            (using the legal-name and lingua-Anglica allowances)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • iegrappling@aol.com
            Dom u ozera or Dom ozera mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator. Are either of these of
            Message 5 of 16 , May 7, 2012
              "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.

              Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?

              -Halbrust


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • aldo
              It means HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS. Aldo From: iegrappling@aol.com Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM To: sig@yahoogroups.com Subject: [sig] Household name
              Message 6 of 16 , May 7, 2012
                It means

                HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS.

                Aldo

                From: iegrappling@...
                Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [sig] Household name help



                "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.

                Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?

                -Halbrust

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ladie Lada
                I would not use Dom ozera because it literally means house in which the lake lives. I don t think that s what you are trying to convey :) Lada Sent from my
                Message 7 of 16 , May 7, 2012
                  I would not use Dom ozera because it literally means house in which the lake lives. I don't think that's what you are trying to convey :)

                  Lada

                  Sent from my iPhone

                  On May 7, 2012, at 11:22 AM, "aldo" <turanomar@...> wrote:

                  > It means
                  >
                  > HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS.
                  >
                  > Aldo
                  >
                  > From: iegrappling@...
                  > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM
                  > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [sig] Household name help
                  >
                  > "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.
                  >
                  > Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?
                  >
                  > -Halbrust
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > TODAY(Beta) � Powered by Yahoo!
                  > Lindsay Lohan's unusual dinner date
                  > Privacy Policy
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nenad Bađunov
                  Dom u ozera means the house at the lake (directly) meaning the house beside the like or at the lake bank. It is nice name for the household. ... [Non-text
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 7, 2012
                    Dom u ozera means the house at the lake (directly) meaning the house
                    beside the like or at the lake bank. It is nice name for the household.



                    On 5/7/2012 17:46, Ladie Lada wrote:
                    > I would not use Dom ozera because it literally means house in which the lake lives. I don't think that's what you are trying to convey :)
                    >
                    > Lada
                    >
                    > Sent from my iPhone
                    >
                    > On May 7, 2012, at 11:22 AM, "aldo"<turanomar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> It means
                    >>
                    >> HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS.
                    >>
                    >> Aldo
                    >>
                    >> From: iegrappling@...
                    >> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM
                    >> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: [sig] Household name help
                    >>
                    >> "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.
                    >>
                    >> Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?
                    >>
                    >> -Halbrust
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo!
                    >> Lindsay Lohan's unusual dinner date
                    >> Privacy Policy
                    >>
                    >>
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Anya Stickney
                    I don t know what would have been used in period. But in modern Russian, Dom u ozera (ÄÏÍ Õ ÏÚÅÒÁ) means house near the lake or house of the lake.
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 7, 2012
                      I don't know what would have been used in period. But in modern
                      Russian, "Dom u ozera" (дом у озера) means house near the lake or
                      house of the lake. This is the version you probably want.
                      As an aside, "дом на берегу озера" means house on the bank of the lake.

                      Anya


                      On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:46 AM, Ladie Lada <ladie_lada@...> wrote:
                      > I would not use Dom ozera because it literally means house in which the lake lives. I don't think that's what you are trying to convey :)
                      >
                      > Lada
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On May 7, 2012, at 11:22 AM, "aldo" <turanomar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> It means
                      >>
                      >> HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS.
                      >>
                      >> Aldo
                      >>
                      >> From: iegrappling@...
                      >> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM
                      >> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: [sig] Household name help
                      >>
                      >> "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.
                      >>
                      >> Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?
                      >>
                      >> -Halbrust
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> TODAY(Beta) * Powered by Yahoo!
                      >> Lindsay Lohan's unusual dinner date
                      >> Privacy Policy
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Ladie Lada
                      Based on modern grammar I would say дом на озере. It means on the bank/ берег and it s inferring the bank / берег by using preposition
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 7, 2012
                        Based on modern grammar I would say дом на озере.
                        It means on the bank/ берег and it's inferring the bank / берег by using preposition на.

                        Using "у" vs. "на" is the difference between saying "next to" vs. "at. Or on".

                        It is a really nice household name.

                        Lada


                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On May 7, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Nenad Bađunov <nenad.pelagrin@...> wrote:

                        > Dom u ozera means the house at the lake (directly) meaning the house
                        > beside the like or at the lake bank. It is nice name for the household.
                        >
                        > On 5/7/2012 17:46, Ladie Lada wrote:
                        > > I would not use Dom ozera because it literally means house in which the lake lives. I don't think that's what you are trying to convey :)
                        > >
                        > > Lada
                        > >
                        > > Sent from my iPhone
                        > >
                        > > On May 7, 2012, at 11:22 AM, "aldo"<turanomar@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> It means
                        > >>
                        > >> HOUSE ALONG THE LAKE BANKS.
                        > >>
                        > >> Aldo
                        > >>
                        > >> From: iegrappling@...
                        > >> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:08 PM
                        > >> To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        > >> Subject: [sig] Household name help
                        > >>
                        > >> "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.
                        > >>
                        > >> Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?
                        > >>
                        > >> -Halbrust
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo!
                        > >> Lindsay Lohan's unusual dinner date
                        > >> Privacy Policy
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • iegrappling@aol.com
                        Thank you all for the wonderful help!!! To a non-Russian speaker (as most are), Dom ozera has a better sound and look. Is Dom ozera grammatically correct, or
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 15, 2012
                          Thank you all for the wonderful help!!!
                          To a non-Russian speaker (as most are), Dom ozera has a better sound and look. Is Dom ozera grammatically correct, or does it need to be Dom u ozera?

                          -Halbrust



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                          Oziorny Dom Dom Ozera is Lake s House. Tue, 15 May 2012 15:48:41 -0400 (EDT) от iegrappling@aol.com:   Thank you all for the wonderful help!!! To a
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 15, 2012
                            Oziorny Dom
                            "Dom Ozera" is Lake's House.


                            Tue, 15 May 2012 15:48:41 -0400 (EDT) от iegrappling@...:


                             




                            Thank you all for the wonderful help!!!
                            To a non-Russian speaker (as most are), Dom ozera has a better sound and look. Is Dom ozera grammatically correct, or does it need to be Dom u ozera?

                            -Halbrust

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • aldo
                            It sounds in Russian more like a person’s family name than a real location. DOM U OZERA is the real expression to be used. Aldo From: iegrappling@aol.com
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 15, 2012
                              It sounds in Russian more like a person’s family name than a real location. DOM U OZERA is the real expression to be used.
                              Aldo

                              From: iegrappling@...
                              Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:48 PM
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [sig] Re: Household name help



                              Thank you all for the wonderful help!!!
                              To a non-Russian speaker (as most are), Dom ozera has a better sound and look. Is Dom ozera grammatically correct, or does it need to be Dom u ozera?

                              -Halbrust

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • aldo
                              I would like to add following to this topic. DOM in Russian indicates a real big building and not a cottage or something like that. Therefore should this
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 15, 2012
                                I would like to add following to this topic. DOM in Russian indicates a real big building and not a cottage or something like that. Therefore should this latter be the case, then I would call it DOMIK instead of DOM.
                                Aldo

                                From: aldo
                                Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:06 AM
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Re: Household name help


                                It sounds in Russian more like a person’s family name than a real location. DOM U OZERA is the real expression to be used.
                                Aldo

                                From: mailto:iegrappling%40aol.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:48 PM
                                To: mailto:sig%40yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [sig] Re: Household name help

                                Thank you all for the wonderful help!!!
                                To a non-Russian speaker (as most are), Dom ozera has a better sound and look. Is Dom ozera grammatically correct, or does it need to be Dom u ozera?

                                -Halbrust

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • J
                                Hello, I teach Ukrainian dance mundanely and, although I don t speak any Russian or Ukrainian, I have some native Russian speakers (recent immigrants) in my
                                Message 15 of 16 , May 18, 2012
                                  Hello,
                                  I teach Ukrainian dance mundanely and, although I don't speak any Russian or Ukrainian, I have some native Russian speakers (recent immigrants) in my group, so I spoke to one of my adult dancers on your behalf. I asked how best to say Lake House or House by the Lake, or any other suggestions she had that would make sense in Russian, for a household name or a family grouping name and this was her answer for you:


                                  "Hi, Yes, those are direct translations from English. I personally wouldn't name my household like this though - in Russian it sounds too simplistic or general... I would say something like Ozyory, Ozyorie or Ozyerie. It would mean the same but sounds more poetic and musical :-) . Hope it helps :-) Tatiana"

                                  As with Tatiana's statement, I hope this answer helps you with your naming! :)

                                  Jeanne (SCA - Juliana)


                                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, iegrappling@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Dom u ozera" or "Dom ozera" mean Lake house, The lake house, House of the lake, and/or House of the lake according to my e-translator.
                                  >
                                  > Are either of these of proper construction for a Rus household name within the SCA?
                                  >
                                  > -Halbrust
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
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