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FWD: [SCA-HRLDS] Lithuanian Names Again

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  • T Duran
    Another plea for help from the Heralds list ! Can Asfridhr, Lady Patricia, or others help this gentle ? Kazimira ... Recently there was a discussion on
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 26, 2012
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      Another plea for help from the Heralds list ! Can Asfridhr, Lady Patricia,
      or others help this gentle ?

      Kazimira


      ------------------------
      Recently there was a discussion on Lithuanian Names. I didn't pay too
      close attention, because it did not concern me at the time, and now I am
      looking at 2 submitters desiring Lithuanian Names. I will be covering 1
      now, because the submission is in process.

      Submitter desires a name similar to Frederick Vinslaoskis. He says that
      the byname is Lithuanian but no resources were available to check during
      the consultation. If this can be put together as a Lithuanian name, that
      would be great, and the submitter allows all changes necessary.
      Closest he got to documenting this was:

      Bahlow-Deutschesnamenlexikan gives Friedrich as a give name in German.
      And
      Wickenden, 3rd ed., p406 s.n. Vyshelav, gives Vintzlaus, 1234 as a
      masculine given name.

      Would it be possible to form a patronymic that comes near to the desired
      sound? Can any one offer some assistance?


      Your servant,
      Ld Antonio Alexandre Dias de Navarra
      Pennon


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Patty
      *sigh* Sometimes I wish that, when heraldic customers want something out-of-the-ordinary that they didn t find in their local consulting herald s books, they
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 26, 2012
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        *sigh* Sometimes I wish that, when heraldic customers want something out-of-the-ordinary that they didn't find in their local consulting herald's books, they actually provide their own documentation -- or at least tell us heralds where they got such ideas. I mean, did the gentle make up the byname because it looked Lithuanian to him, or is it the surname that Ellis Island mangled when one of his great-grandparents arrived in America?

        End of rant. Let me start with the first name, Frederick.

        "Frederick" is not really used as a given name in Lithuanian. On the website http://www.thelithuanians.com/names/name2e.html -- which is probably NOT acceptable as documentation by SCA heralds -- you can see there's no equivalent for Frederick, and "Fredas" is a short form of "Alfredas," which is Alfred. Polish might be a better bet -- the page http://polandpoland.com/common_polish_names.html lists "Fryderyk" as a Polish spelling, and one page from the Academy of St. Gabriel (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/polish/) lists "Fryderyk, Frydrych, Frydryk, Friderich, Friedrich" as Polish names derived from the German, Frankish or French.

        Now for that byname ... Vinslaoskis. When I Google that word, I get *nothing* but references to oscar.sca.org and the Meridies heraldic submissions tracker. which sends up a big red flag in my mind. That's why I asked about Ellis Island -- my immigrant grandfather ended up with a different surname from his older brother, who had preceded him in America.

        "Venslauskas" seems to be a plausible Lithuanian surname, and maybe "Vinslauskas" too. However, I have no idea whether those surnames existed before 1600. Searches on these names tend to produce links to LinkedIn, Facebook, Ancestry.com and site of that ilk. Again, it would really help to know where the submitter got this name in the first place.

        If the submitter wishes to start from scratch with a byname, one possible starting point might be looking at the names of Lithuanian nobility, such as the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lithuanian_nobility, and then studying the naming conventions of the people born before 1600. Note that the College of Arms probably won't allow Radziwill as a byname because it's presumptive -- it's like naming your English persona Henry Tudor.

        Also, if the submitter wishes to pick Fryderyk as a given name, he may wish to find a way to Polonize the Lithuanian byname. For example, Ivan Olshansky, Jonas Alseniskis and Jan Holszanski are three different ways to refer to the same person, who died circa 1402.

        Another Lithuanian naming article I always recommend is http://www.lituanus.org/1982_3/82_3_01.htm. If you can get to an academic library, check out the listings at http://slavic.freeservers.com/biblio/names.html.

        Good luck,
        Lady Patricia of Trakai
        Drakkar Pursuivant, Barony of Storvik




        -----Original Message-----
        From: T Duran <sazabhadri@...>
        To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 7:00 pm
        Subject: [sig] FWD: [SCA-HRLDS] Lithuanian Names Again


        Another plea for help from the Heralds list ! Can Asfridhr, Lady Patricia,
        or others help this gentle ?

        Kazimira


        ------------------------
        Recently there was a discussion on Lithuanian Names. I didn't pay too
        close attention, because it did not concern me at the time, and now I am
        looking at 2 submitters desiring Lithuanian Names. I will be covering 1
        now, because the submission is in process.

        Submitter desires a name similar to Frederick Vinslaoskis. He says that
        the byname is Lithuanian but no resources were available to check during
        the consultation. If this can be put together as a Lithuanian name, that
        would be great, and the submitter allows all changes necessary.
        Closest he got to documenting this was:

        Bahlow-Deutschesnamenlexikan gives Friedrich as a give name in German.
        And
        Wickenden, 3rd ed., p406 s.n. Vyshelav, gives Vintzlaus, 1234 as a
        masculine given name.

        Would it be possible to form a patronymic that comes near to the desired
        sound? Can any one offer some assistance?


        Your servant,
        Ld Antonio Alexandre Dias de Navarra
        Pennon


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • T Duran
        Thanks, Patricia. Will pass that on. Kazimira ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 26, 2012
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          Thanks, Patricia. Will pass that on.

          Kazimira


          On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Patty <Patoodle@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > *sigh* Sometimes I wish that, when heraldic customers want something
          > out-of-the-ordinary that they didn't find in their local consulting
          > herald's books, they actually provide their own documentation -- or at
          > least tell us heralds where they got such ideas. I mean, did the gentle
          > make up the byname because it looked Lithuanian to him, or is it the
          > surname that Ellis Island mangled when one of his great-grandparents
          > arrived in America?
          >
          > End of rant. Let me start with the first name, Frederick.
          >
          > "Frederick" is not really used as a given name in Lithuanian. On the
          > website http://www.thelithuanians.com/names/name2e.html -- which is
          > probably NOT acceptable as documentation by SCA heralds -- you can see
          > there's no equivalent for Frederick, and "Fredas" is a short form of
          > "Alfredas," which is Alfred. Polish might be a better bet -- the page
          > http://polandpoland.com/common_polish_names.html lists "Fryderyk" as a
          > Polish spelling, and one page from the Academy of St. Gabriel (
          > http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/polish/) lists "Fryderyk,
          > Frydrych, Frydryk, Friderich, Friedrich" as Polish names derived from the
          > German, Frankish or French.
          >
          > Now for that byname ... Vinslaoskis. When I Google that word, I get
          > *nothing* but references to oscar.sca.org and the Meridies heraldic
          > submissions tracker. which sends up a big red flag in my mind. That's why I
          > asked about Ellis Island -- my immigrant grandfather ended up with a
          > different surname from his older brother, who had preceded him in America.
          >
          > "Venslauskas" seems to be a plausible Lithuanian surname, and maybe
          > "Vinslauskas" too. However, I have no idea whether those surnames existed
          > before 1600. Searches on these names tend to produce links to LinkedIn,
          > Facebook, Ancestry.com and site of that ilk. Again, it would really help to
          > know where the submitter got this name in the first place.
          >
          > If the submitter wishes to start from scratch with a byname, one possible
          > starting point might be looking at the names of Lithuanian nobility, such
          > as the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lithuanian_nobility,and then studying the naming conventions of the people born before 1600.
          > Note that the College of Arms probably won't allow Radziwill as a byname
          > because it's presumptive -- it's like naming your English persona Henry
          > Tudor.
          >
          > Also, if the submitter wishes to pick Fryderyk as a given name, he may
          > wish to find a way to Polonize the Lithuanian byname. For example, Ivan
          > Olshansky, Jonas Alseniskis and Jan Holszanski are three different ways to
          > refer to the same person, who died circa 1402.
          >
          > Another Lithuanian naming article I always recommend is
          > http://www.lituanus.org/1982_3/82_3_01.htm. If you can get to an academic
          > library, check out the listings at
          > http://slavic.freeservers.com/biblio/names.html.
          >
          > Good luck,
          > Lady Patricia of Trakai
          > Drakkar Pursuivant, Barony of Storvik
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: T Duran <sazabhadri@...>
          > To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thu, Apr 26, 2012 7:00 pm
          > Subject: [sig] FWD: [SCA-HRLDS] Lithuanian Names Again
          >
          > Another plea for help from the Heralds list ! Can Asfridhr, Lady Patricia,
          > or others help this gentle ?
          >
          > Kazimira
          >
          > ------------------------
          > Recently there was a discussion on Lithuanian Names. I didn't pay too
          > close attention, because it did not concern me at the time, and now I am
          > looking at 2 submitters desiring Lithuanian Names. I will be covering 1
          > now, because the submission is in process.
          >
          > Submitter desires a name similar to Frederick Vinslaoskis. He says that
          > the byname is Lithuanian but no resources were available to check during
          > the consultation. If this can be put together as a Lithuanian name, that
          > would be great, and the submitter allows all changes necessary.
          > Closest he got to documenting this was:
          >
          > Bahlow-Deutschesnamenlexikan gives Friedrich as a give name in German.
          > And
          > Wickenden, 3rd ed., p406 s.n. Vyshelav, gives Vintzlaus, 1234 as a
          > masculine given name.
          >
          > Would it be possible to form a patronymic that comes near to the desired
          > sound? Can any one offer some assistance?
          >
          > Your servant,
          > Ld Antonio Alexandre Dias de Navarra
          > Pennon
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • T Duran
          Also, my apologies to the list for completely failing to trim that reply. ... Kazimira [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 26, 2012
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            Also, my apologies to the list for completely failing to trim that reply.
            >_<

            Kazimira


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Quokkaqueen
            Fryderyk as a Polish spelling, and one page from the Academy of St. Gabriel (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/polish/) lists Fryderyk,
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 30, 2012
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              <<snip>>
              "Fryderyk" as a Polish spelling, and one page from the Academy of St. Gabriel (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/walraven/polish/) lists "Fryderyk, Frydrych, Frydryk, Friderich, Friedrich" as Polish names derived from the German, Frankish or French.
              <<snip>>

              I can't really offer much more help than Patricia, sadly. All of the period texts I can find (so far) mentioning a Fryderyk as the modern, Polish form, are in Latin. So Fryderyk Jagiellon is Fridericus Jagellonidis, for example:
              http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/03486/CE9EE98615D21A63463730C4334F85890C55F65F.html

              And Fryderyk Getkant (Lithuanised as Frydrichas Gedkantas) is Fridericus Getkant
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fryderyk_Getkant

              It looks like the modern Lithuanian form is Frydrichas. The only thing remotely like Frydrichas, that I can find, is in a Czech manuscript from 1619:

              "Nasse Frydricha, z Božj Milosti Krále Cžeskeho, Falckraběte při Reynu, a Kurffirssta, rc. Otewřené Rosepsánj"
              This is apparently Frederick V, Elector Palatine, King of Bohemia. If Wikipedia is accurate, then his name today is usually spelled "Fridrich".
              http://www.manuscriptorium.com/apps/main/en/index.php?request=request_document&docId=set20080520_75_38
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_V,_Elector_Palatine

              <<snip>>
              > "Venslauskas" seems to be a plausible Lithuanian surname, and maybe "Vinslauskas" too. However, I have no idea whether those surnames existed before 1600. Searches on these names tend to produce links to LinkedIn, Facebook, Ancestry.com and site of that ilk. Again, it would really help to know where the submitter got this name in the first place.
              <<snip>>

              I asked this on Oscar, but it sounds almost like a corrupted form of a patronymic form of Wenceslaus? The link Patricia gave says that the Polish form is Wacław, which we can find in Latin-language Polish documents, such as "Venceslao Lescinio"/"Wacław Leszczyński"

              Source: http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09404/0301478B9EE5AD4AC93C9A685BF542B307486926.html?start=6&query=Wac%C5%82aw&qf=YEAR:1597&qf=YEAR:1594
              and
              http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/09404/9ADC1B459C295198A0BB45BC473AE1D7F4AB373D.html?start=7&query=Wac%C5%82aw&qf=YEAR:1597&qf=YEAR:1594

              Looking at "The Latinization of names in the Middle Ages" (http://nicolaa5.tripod.com/articles/latin.html) a Polish name in Latin could be Fridericus Venceslaus? I honestly am not sure how correct that is. But it seems close to what the submitter wants...

              Not sure how useful any of that is, I'm not very good at Polish names!

              ~Asfridhr
            • T Duran
              ... Thanks, I ll pass it on. In the meantime there was a little bit of ... Cheers, Kazimira
              Message 6 of 6 , May 1, 2012
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                <snip>

                > Not sure how useful any of that is, I'm not very good at Polish names!

                Thanks, I'll pass it on. In the meantime there was a little bit of
                further information provided on SCAHRLDS:

                > Bahlow-Deutschesnamenlexikan gives Friedrich as a give name in German.
                > Wickenden, 3rd ed., p406 s.n. Vyshelav, gives Vintzlaus, 1234 as a masculine > given name. It should be possible to form a patronymic that comes near to
                > the desired sound. Please help me out here.

                > Lacking any sources for documenting Lithuanian names, the submitter is
                > requesting that the college help form a suitable name in
                > German/Polish/Russian/Lithuanian. Submitter allows all changes necessary
                > to do this.

                Cheers,

                Kazimira
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