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SCA Lithuanian Name

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  • Gary C
    Hi All, I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking for 14th - 15th century. How close is Mikolaj Pilypas ? Thanks in advance
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 10, 2012
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      Hi All,
      I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking for 14th - 15th century. How close is "Mikolaj Pilypas"?

      Thanks in advance for any assistance.
    • Beth Harper
      Do you have documentation? (Don t try to back-document a Lithuanian name. Trust me. It s a long, hard road with tears, bitterness, and a Wordpress migration at
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 10, 2012
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        Do you have documentation? (Don't try to back-document a Lithuanian name.
        Trust me. It's a long, hard road with tears, bitterness, and a Wordpress
        migration at the end.) Mykolaj is definitely Polish but in that period
        there can be an argument made for cross-naming; it looks like Mykolas would
        be the straight-up Lithuanian form. Girvilas uses it* *as an uncited
        example in a list of patronymic construction examples but he only uses
        pre-1500 names in that paper, so there's a citable source out there
        somewhere to be chased down. (http://www.lituanus.org/1978/78_3_02.htm)

        Pilypas looks like a good period given name to me. There's some evidence
        for the use of known given names as surnames in period, but it's more
        commonly a modern practice; a patronymic construction might get you
        farther. You might have a case if you want to fight for Mykolaj Pilypas,
        but what about Mykolas Pilypaitis?

        Yay more Lithuanians!

        Liepa Jonaite
        (previously Jonaskaite)
        Villaleon, Outlands

        On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Gary C <gcheimis@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Hi All,
        > I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking
        > for 14th - 15th century. How close is "Mikolaj Pilypas"?
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any assistance.
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Patty
        Yep, I m the first to admit that Lithuanian name documentation is one tough slog. Generally, when I read an encyclopedia entry or short bio of a historical
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 10, 2012
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          Yep, I'm the first to admit that Lithuanian name documentation is one tough slog.

          Generally, when I read an encyclopedia entry or short bio of a historical figure from Eastern Europe, both the given name and byname are listed in the same language. (Example: Nicholas Copernicus, Nikolaus Kopernikus, Niccolo Copernico.) I suspect, but do not have absolute proof, that in period a certain nobleman might be known as Jurgis Radvila in Lithuanian territory and Jerzy Radziwill in Polish lands, but never, say, Jerzy Radvila.

          So, given that you're trying to pick a name that doesn't incorporate part of your mundane name (the way I did), I'd say you'll have better luck with the heralds if you pick Lithuanian versions of both the given name and the byname.

          Next, the heralds will ask: Were the name components used as human names in period? (Also, the first and last names shouldn't be more than about 300 years apart.)

          Luckily, I found two guys named Mykolas Kesgaila in the 15th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykolas_K%C4%99sgaila and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykolas_K%C4%99sgaila_%28died_1476%29). Please, please look for some documentation besides Wikipedia. But at least you won't be on a total wild-goose chase.

          Note that Mykolas (Michael) is a Christian name and would not have been used in Lithuania prior to the 1360s, so you might want to state on the name submission form that you are looking for a 15th-century name.

          Now, as for the byname ... The current Rules for Submission given by the SCA College of Arms say that you can use a constructed byname, provided that you "follow the rules for formation of the appropriate category of name element in the language from which the documented components are drawn." (For example, Andrew, son of Rorik, is Andrew Roriksson.) So, if you want to go for Pilypaitis as a constructed byname based on Pilypas (Lithuanian for Philip), I think it would be entirely legitimate. However, you MUST provide documentation for Pilypas AND include that Lituanus article as a reference (with the relevant parts highlighted for the benefit of the hard-working heralds).

          Remember, there aren't that many SCA heralds with experience with Lithuanian names, and there is comparatively little name-related material out there on this topic. So you will need to provide some education along with your name submission.

          But definitely go for it! I think we need more Lithuanian names in the SCA! *smile*

          In service,
          Lady Patricia of Trakai
          Drakkar Pursuivant, Barony of Storvik, Atlantia
          (whose mundane surname would have been a perfect 11th-century Lithuanian male name, according to that Lituanus article)





          -----Original Message-----
          From: Beth Harper <lyndyn29@...>
          To: sig <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, Jan 10, 2012 7:42 pm
          Subject: Re: [sig] SCA Lithuanian Name


          Do you have documentation? (Don't try to back-document a Lithuanian name.
          Trust me. It's a long, hard road with tears, bitterness, and a Wordpress
          migration at the end.) Mykolaj is definitely Polish but in that period
          there can be an argument made for cross-naming; it looks like Mykolas would
          be the straight-up Lithuanian form. Girvilas uses it* *as an uncited
          example in a list of patronymic construction examples but he only uses
          pre-1500 names in that paper, so there's a citable source out there
          somewhere to be chased down. (http://www.lituanus.org/1978/78_3_02.htm)

          Pilypas looks like a good period given name to me. There's some evidence
          for the use of known given names as surnames in period, but it's more
          commonly a modern practice; a patronymic construction might get you
          farther. You might have a case if you want to fight for Mykolaj Pilypas,
          but what about Mykolas Pilypaitis?

          Yay more Lithuanians!

          Liepa Jonaite
          (previously Jonaskaite)
          Villaleon, Outlands

          On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Gary C <gcheimis@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hi All,
          > I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking
          > for 14th - 15th century. How close is "Mikolaj Pilypas"?
          >
          > Thanks in advance for any assistance.
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gary C
          I chose the Mikolaj based upon finding it used by multiple people in period: Miko³aj II Radziwi³³ (1470–1521), Grand Chancellor of Lithuania Miko³aj III
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 11, 2012
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            I chose the Mikolaj based upon finding it used by multiple people in period:

            Miko³aj II Radziwi³³ (1470–1521), Grand Chancellor of Lithuania
            Miko³aj III Radziwi³³ (1492–1530), Bishop of Samogitia
            Miko³aj "the Red" Radziwi³³ (1512–1584), Voivode of Vilnius, Grand Chancellor and Grand Hetman of Lithuania
            Miko³aj "the Black" Radziwi³³ (1515–1565), Voivode of Vilnius, Grand Chancellor and Grand Hetman of Lithuania
            Miko³aj VII Radziwi³³ (1546–1589), Voivode of Navahrudak
            Miko³aj Krzysztof "the Orphan" Radziwi³³ (1549–1616), Grand Marshal of Lithuania, voivode of Trakai and Vilnius

            I chose the Pilypas because the person that first got me interested in the SCA was named Phillip. I would be fine with using the patronymic.

            Any other suggestions?
          • Quokkaqueen
            ... As everyone else has said, due to the lack of resources available, Lithuanian names are tricky. Part of the problem is that the language
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 11, 2012
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              <<snip>>
              > I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking for 14th - 15th century. How close is "Mikolaj Pilypas"?
              <<snip>>

              As everyone else has said, due to the lack of resources available, Lithuanian names are tricky. Part of the problem is that the language wasn't written down until the 16th century, so there aren't any 'primary' Lithuanian sources.

              Nicolaus Copernicus (Latin) is known modernly as Mikołaj Kopernik Polish) or Mikalojus Kopernikas (Lithuanian), although if Wikipedia is to be believed he spelled it in a range of different ways himself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus).

              Similarly, Nicolaus Hussovianus (Latin) is also known as Mikołaj Hussowczyk (Polish) and Mikalojus Husovianas (Lithuanian), even though what little I've found out about him indicates he wrote in Latin, and so was Nicolaus. (See http://www.antologija.lt/texts/2/main.html for an example).

              Incidentally, in the later Grand Duchy, it seems people used locative bynames. (possibly like Nicolaus Hussovianus) Have you considered the town of Pilviškiai The earliest date I can find for it is 1536, on the Ruthenian(?) form "Пильвишки"/"Pylvyshky".

              Source:
              Aleksandras Vanagas, 2004. "Lietuvos Miestu Vardai" (Vilnius: Mokslo ir Enciklopediju Leidybos Institutas); p. 158.

              In any case, it depends why you are asking about a Lithuanian name - if it is because you want to register it with the SCA heralds, then it needs to be documented (and I, personally, think a Latinized Lithuanian name would be *awesome* given that the heralds are more interested in registering how it was spelled than how it was said...), but if you aren't interested then there is nothing official to stop you from calling yourself whatever you please! :)

              Not sure if any of that helps,

              Asfridhr
            • Quokkaqueen
              We might be in luck! (Although I ve only been able to look at 16-17th c. documents.) Historical Documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
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                We might be in luck! (Although I've only been able to look at 16-17th c. documents.)

                Historical Documents of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/indexen.en.htm), part of the website of the National Library of Lithuania has a few documents online that might help!

                LNMMB F101-41 from 1590
                http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/istoriniailietdok_5en.en.htm
                Mkolay Sakietla kuchmistr wlasną ręką (Mikolaj Sakietla, eating-house keeper)
                http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/F101-41/images/F101-41a.jpg for a scan of the document. See the third line from the bottom in Polish. I swear it says Mikolay Narnbewicz instead of Mkolay Sakietla, but I know nothing of 16th century orthography. Can anyone help?


                LNMMB F101-50 from 1618
                http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/istoriniailietdok_6en.en.htm
                Krystyna Mikolaiowna (Krystyna Mikołajowna)


                LNMMB F101-57 from 1631 seems to have the un-standardised form:
                http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/istoriniailietdok_7en.en.htm

                Mikołaÿ Abramowicz ręką swą (ie. Mikołaj Abramowicz, son of the palatine of Smolensk).


                So at least in Polish documents, produced in Lithuania, the name Mikolai or Mikolay might be used?

                I'll keep looking for any forms of Philip/Pilyp/Filip I can find.

                ~Asfridhr
              • Quokkaqueen
                http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/F101-41/images/F101-41a.jpg for a scan of the document. See the third line from the bottom in Polish.
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
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                  <<snip>>
                  http://pergamentai.mch.mii.lt/IstoriniaiLietDok/F101-41/images/F101-41a.jpg for a scan of the document. See the third line from the bottom in Polish. I swear it says Mikolay Narnbewicz instead of Mkolay Sakietla, but I know nothing of 16th century orthography. Can anyone help?
                  <<snip>>

                  Oops, I'm pretty sure the 'b' is really an eszett or ß to stans for sz... and the second n is probably a u... so Naruszewicz?

                  ~Asfridhr, can't read.
                • Quokkaqueen
                  Weirdly enough, I found this webpage: 1528 Census of Troops of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania http://kdkv.narod.ru/1528-VKL/index.htm And under F /Ô
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jan 16, 2012
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                    Weirdly enough, I found this webpage:

                    1528 Census of Troops of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania
                    http://kdkv.narod.ru/1528-VKL/index.htm

                    And under 'F'/Ô
                    http://kdkv.narod.ru/1528-VKL/1528-21f.htm

                    There is a "Filipovich, Mikolay"/"Ôèëèïîâè÷ Ìèêîëàé" listed.

                    If I've understood things correctly, then this is based on the Lithuanian Metrica and so is written in Ruthenian, which may be why it looks like such a Slavic name.

                    But if more experienced people than I could have a look at the webpages, it'd be much appreciated!

                    Asfridhr
                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Gary C" <gcheimis@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    > I am looking for assistance on a Lithuanian name for the SCA. I looking for 14th - 15th century. How close is "Mikolaj Pilypas"?
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance for any assistance.
                    >
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