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Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

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  • Tim Nalley
    What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave.... dok
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
      What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
      'dok
    • Sfandra
      Thanks Sofya!   I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of Sfandra s Druzhina rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
        Thanks Sofya!  


        I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales.  I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p  )


        There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use.  Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.  Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

        I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

        Thanks,
        Sfandra

        ******************
        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
        O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
        http://sfandra.webs.com
        Never 'pearl' your butt.
        ******************


        ________________________________
        From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

        Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

        The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
        constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household.  The city of
        Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
        of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute.  Most of the
        people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
        hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

        The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
        home, household.  This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
        Domostroi.  "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
        including children, servants and slaves.  So if you see your household as
        being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
        A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
        "yard" or "estate".  It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
        in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
        extension, the people who live/work there.  These people would include
        cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
        nice term if you see your household as a collection of
        workshops/artisans.  On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
        "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
        particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
        up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars).  Hence,
        it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
        alternate titles list.

        The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
        word for friend, "drug".  These are the (relatively) close companions of a
        prince or boyar.  They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
        they were free to leave his service at will.  I think this term comes the
        closest to the way most people set up their SCA households.  It is
        especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
        heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
        equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
        their lord.

        And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms.  You
        can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
        be "Dom Sfandry".  You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
        like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
        Sfandra for this).

        The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
        (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar.  Sfandrov
        would be the patronymic form of Sfandr.  I admit that Sfandrov and
        Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

        At your service,

        Sofya

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Amy Tubbs
        My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct constructions
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
          My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
          is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
          constructions for a household name?

          Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
          Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
          that construction?)

          -- Vitasha

          On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
          >
          > The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
          > constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
          > Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was
          > full
          > of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
          > people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
          > hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.
          >
          > The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
          > home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
          > Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
          > including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
          > being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
          > A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
          > "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
          > in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
          > extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
          > cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be
          > a
          > nice term if you see your household as a collection of
          > workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
          > "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
          > particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
          > up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
          > it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
          > alternate titles list.
          >
          > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
          > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
          > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
          > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
          > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
          > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
          > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
          > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
          > for
          > their lord.
          >
          > And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
          > can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
          > be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
          > like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
          > Sfandra for this).
          >
          > The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
          > (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
          > would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
          > Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.
          >
          > At your service,
          >
          > Sofya
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
          > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          > ___
          > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          > {o,o}
          > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          > (__(|
          > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
          > -^-^-`
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sfandra
          ...   So maybe Ilinii druzhina?  Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I m thinking of terms like Radimichi ,
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 21, 2011
            As Sofya said:
            > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
            > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
            > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
            > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
            > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
            > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
            > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
            > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
            > for their lord.
             
            So maybe Ilinii druzhina? 

            Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I'm thinking of terms like "Radimichi", "Viatichi".  I don't know that I've ever seen that suffix used for anything other than rather broad tribal or 'clan' like designations.

            Still pondering...
            --Sfandra


            ******************
            Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
            O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
            http://sfandra.webs.com
            Never 'pearl' your butt.
            ******************


            ________________________________
            From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>


            My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
            is a knight.  His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich.  Would these be correct
            constructions for a household name?

            Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
            Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii?  Can you even do
            that construction?)

            -- Vitasha

            On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
            SNIP

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Liudmila
            Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all... Liudmila, the absent ... From: Sfandra To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
              Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...

              Liudmila, the absent








              -----Original Message-----
              From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am
              Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian





              Thanks Sofya!

              I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )

              There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station. Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

              I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

              Thanks,
              Sfandra

              ******************
              Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
              O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
              http://sfandra.webs.com
              Never 'pearl' your butt.
              ******************

              ________________________________
              From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

              Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

              The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
              constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
              Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
              of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
              people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
              hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

              The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
              home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
              Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
              including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
              being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
              A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
              "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
              in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
              extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
              cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
              nice term if you see your household as a collection of
              workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
              "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
              particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
              up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
              it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
              alternate titles list.

              The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
              word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
              prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
              they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
              closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
              especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
              heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
              equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
              their lord.

              And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
              can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
              be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
              like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
              Sfandra for this).

              The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
              (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
              would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
              Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

              At your service,

              Sofya

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Liudmila
              Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So: Il in Dom or Il in Dvor, either way. I think that podvor e was often used in this context, and not
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
                Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.

                Liudmila









                -----Original Message-----
                From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


                My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                constructions for a household name?

                Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                that construction?)

                -- Vitasha






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patty
                I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina! Cheers, Lady Patricia of Trakai ... From: Liudmila To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jun 24,
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                  I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina!

                  Cheers,
                  Lady Patricia of Trakai










                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2011 2:03 am
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian




                  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...



                  Liudmila, the absent

















                  -----Original Message-----

                  From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>

                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>

                  Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am

                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian











                  Thanks Sofya!



                  I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina"

                  rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading

                  through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding

                  households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of

                  people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat"

                  based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I

                  didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few

                  other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm

                  more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the

                  college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and

                  practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )



                  There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really

                  made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in

                  the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.

                  Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that

                  connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.



                  I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of

                  options!



                  Thanks,

                  Sfandra



                  ******************

                  Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova

                  O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom

                  http://sfandra.webs.com

                  Never 'pearl' your butt.

                  ******************



                  ________________________________

                  From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>

                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com

                  Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM

                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian



                  Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!



                  The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"

                  constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of

                  Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full

                  of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the

                  people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a

                  hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.



                  The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,

                  home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the

                  Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents

                  including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as

                  being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.

                  A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",

                  "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built

                  in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by

                  extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include

                  cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a

                  nice term if you see your household as a collection of

                  workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term

                  "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",

                  particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make

                  up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,

                  it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA

                  alternate titles list.



                  The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the

                  word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a

                  prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although

                  they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the

                  closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is

                  especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the

                  heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian

                  equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for

                  their lord.



                  And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You

                  can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and

                  be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something

                  like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of

                  Sfandra for this).



                  The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin

                  (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov

                  would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and

                  Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.



                  At your service,



                  Sofya



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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                • Lisa Kies
                  Greetings from Sofya! ... I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor e in Sreznevskii s Dictionary. It s not a term I m familiar with.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                    Greetings from Sofya!

                    On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                    > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                    >
                    I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                    Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                    Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                    structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                    (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a court
                    and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.

                    On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                    documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                    dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.

                    On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                    > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                    > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                    > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                    > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                    >

                    I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                    patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                    I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.

                    Genitive case forms:
                    Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                    that's flexible)
                    Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                    (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)

                    Adjectival forms:
                    Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                    Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)

                    At your service,

                    Sofya

                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                    Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                    ___
                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                    {o,o}
                    "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                    (__(|
                    "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                    -^-^-`
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lisa Kies
                    Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group... I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic form, but it wouldn t have the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                      Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                      I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                      form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                      Druzhina Sfandri

                      Sofya

                      On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                      >
                      > Liudmila, the absent
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lisa Kies
                      Greetings from Sofya! ... It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be Sfandrinskii/aia so: Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and Sfandrinskaia Druzhina
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                        Greetings from Sofya!

                        On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something like "Sfandriiskii
                        > Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of Sfandra for this).
                        >

                        It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be
                        Sfandrinskii/aia so:

                        Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and
                        Sfandrinskaia Druzhina

                        At your service,

                        Sofya

                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                        ___
                        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                        {o,o}
                        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                        (__(|
                        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                        -^-^-`
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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                      • Amy Tubbs
                        No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post. --Vitasha ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                          No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post.
                          --Vitasha


                          On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                          > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                          > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                          > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                          > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                          >
                          > Liudmila
                          >
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                          > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                          > Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian
                          >
                          > My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                          > is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                          > constructions for a household name?
                          >
                          > Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                          > Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                          > that construction?)
                          >
                          > -- Vitasha
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Howard Rachel
                          Pushkarev s Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has: *Podvorie* - a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that belonged to an outside owner
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                            Pushkarev's Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has:

                            *Podvorie* - "a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that
                            belonged to an outside owner (like a monsatary or rich land owner)"

                            *podvornik* - "a person who lived and worked in another's household"

                            *dvor* - "Household; homestead; yard; court. In the chronicles dvor
                            sometimes meant the prince's military service men collectively."

                            I believe this differentiates dvor and podvorie significantly, and supports
                            dvor as better in the context of an SCA household.

                            Kazimir, Meridies


                            On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Greetings from Sofya!
                            >
                            > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                            > > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                            > >
                            > I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                            > Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                            > Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                            > structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                            > (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a
                            > court
                            > and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.
                            >
                            > On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                            > documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                            > dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.
                            >
                            > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                            > > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often
                            > used
                            > > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                            > > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                            > > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                            > >
                            >
                            > I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                            > patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                            > I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.
                            >
                            > Genitive case forms:
                            > Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                            > that's flexible)
                            > Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                            > (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)
                            >
                            > Adjectival forms:
                            > Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                            > Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)
                            >
                            > At your service,
                            >
                            > Sofya
                            >
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                            > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                            > ___
                            > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                            > {o,o}
                            > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                            > (__(|
                            > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                            > -^-^-`
                            > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sfandra
                            Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....   As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                              Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                               
                              As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                              "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                              I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                              --Sfandra
                               

                              ******************

                              From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                              Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                              Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                              I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                              form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                              Druzhina Sfandri

                              Sofya

                              On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                              >
                              > Liudmila, the absent
                              >


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                            • Sfandra
                              Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!   I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                                Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!
                                 
                                I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to everyone in my household.
                                 
                                --Sfandra

                                ******************


                                From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                                To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 8:04 PM
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                 
                                As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                --Sfandra
                                 

                                ******************

                                From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                Druzhina Sfandri

                                Sofya

                                On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                >
                                > Liudmila, the absent
                                >


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                              • Lisa Kies
                                Greetings from Sofya! ... I didn t forget about you, Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the problem. The problem is that hammered doesn t have the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 29, 2011
                                  Greetings from Sofya!

                                  On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

                                  > What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
                                  > 'dok


                                  I didn't forget about you, 'Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the
                                  problem. The problem is that "hammered" doesn't have the same double
                                  meaning in Russian as it does in English. No matter what angle I go at it,
                                  no matter what synonyms I pursue, I'm just not finding a very good Russian
                                  translation.

                                  Goat = kozyol (male)
                                  Drunken = p'yanyj, napivshijsya
                                  Smashed = vdryzg p'yanyj or vdrebezgi p'yanyj � blind / dead / stiff drunk
                                  Hammer = molot;
                                  To hammer = bit', udaryat';
                                  hammered/forged = kovanyj
                                  *to forge = kovat', vykovyvat'*, chekanit';
                                  a smithy = kuznitsa, adj. kuznechnyj;
                                  beaten/broken down = razbityj

                                  The best I can come up with is the alliterative "Kuznechnyi Kozyol" which
                                  means "smithy goat" but doesn't include the brewery angle, unless you figure
                                  that a goat that will eat anything will likely drink anything also. Same
                                  problem with Kovanyj Kozyol - hammered/forged goat.

                                  ;-)

                                  Sofya

                                  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                  Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                  Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                  ___
                                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                  {o,o}
                                  "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                  (__(|
                                  "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                  -^-^-`
                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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