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Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

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  • Lisa Kies
    Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra! The problem I see with using the term gorod or other town constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 19 10:39 AM
      Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

      The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
      constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
      Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
      of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
      people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
      hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

      The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
      home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
      Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
      including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
      being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
      A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
      "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
      in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
      extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
      cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
      nice term if you see your household as a collection of
      workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
      "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
      particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
      up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
      it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
      alternate titles list.

      The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
      word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
      prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
      they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
      closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
      especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
      heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
      equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
      their lord.

      And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
      can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
      be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
      like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
      Sfandra for this).

      The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
      (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
      would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
      Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

      At your service,

      Sofya

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      ___
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      {o,o}
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      (__(|
      "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
      -^-^-`
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Nalley
      What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave.... dok
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 19 12:44 PM
        What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
        'dok
      • Sfandra
        Thanks Sofya!   I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of Sfandra s Druzhina rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 20 5:40 AM
          Thanks Sofya!  


          I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales.  I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p  )


          There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use.  Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.  Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

          I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

          Thanks,
          Sfandra

          ******************
          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
          O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
          http://sfandra.webs.com
          Never 'pearl' your butt.
          ******************


          ________________________________
          From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

          Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

          The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
          constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household.  The city of
          Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
          of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute.  Most of the
          people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
          hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

          The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
          home, household.  This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
          Domostroi.  "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
          including children, servants and slaves.  So if you see your household as
          being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
          A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
          "yard" or "estate".  It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
          in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
          extension, the people who live/work there.  These people would include
          cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
          nice term if you see your household as a collection of
          workshops/artisans.  On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
          "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
          particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
          up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars).  Hence,
          it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
          alternate titles list.

          The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
          word for friend, "drug".  These are the (relatively) close companions of a
          prince or boyar.  They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
          they were free to leave his service at will.  I think this term comes the
          closest to the way most people set up their SCA households.  It is
          especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
          heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
          equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
          their lord.

          And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms.  You
          can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
          be "Dom Sfandry".  You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
          like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
          Sfandra for this).

          The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
          (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar.  Sfandrov
          would be the patronymic form of Sfandr.  I admit that Sfandrov and
          Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

          At your service,

          Sofya

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Amy Tubbs
          My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct constructions
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 20 7:08 PM
            My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
            is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
            constructions for a household name?

            Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
            Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
            that construction?)

            -- Vitasha

            On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
            >
            > The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
            > constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
            > Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was
            > full
            > of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
            > people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
            > hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.
            >
            > The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
            > home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
            > Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
            > including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
            > being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
            > A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
            > "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
            > in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
            > extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
            > cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be
            > a
            > nice term if you see your household as a collection of
            > workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
            > "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
            > particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
            > up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
            > it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
            > alternate titles list.
            >
            > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
            > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
            > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
            > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
            > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
            > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
            > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
            > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
            > for
            > their lord.
            >
            > And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
            > can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
            > be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
            > like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
            > Sfandra for this).
            >
            > The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
            > (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
            > would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
            > Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.
            >
            > At your service,
            >
            > Sofya
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
            > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            > ___
            > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            > {o,o}
            > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            > (__(|
            > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
            > -^-^-`
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sfandra
            ...   So maybe Ilinii druzhina?  Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I m thinking of terms like Radimichi ,
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 21 5:55 AM
              As Sofya said:
              > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
              > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
              > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
              > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
              > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
              > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
              > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
              > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
              > for their lord.
               
              So maybe Ilinii druzhina? 

              Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I'm thinking of terms like "Radimichi", "Viatichi".  I don't know that I've ever seen that suffix used for anything other than rather broad tribal or 'clan' like designations.

              Still pondering...
              --Sfandra


              ******************
              Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
              O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
              http://sfandra.webs.com
              Never 'pearl' your butt.
              ******************


              ________________________________
              From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>


              My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
              is a knight.  His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich.  Would these be correct
              constructions for a household name?

              Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
              Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii?  Can you even do
              that construction?)

              -- Vitasha

              On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
              SNIP

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Liudmila
              Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all... Liudmila, the absent ... From: Sfandra To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 23 11:03 PM
                Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...

                Liudmila, the absent








                -----Original Message-----
                From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am
                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian





                Thanks Sofya!

                I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )

                There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station. Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

                I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

                Thanks,
                Sfandra

                ******************
                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                http://sfandra.webs.com
                Never 'pearl' your butt.
                ******************

                ________________________________
                From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

                The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
                Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
                of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
                people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

                The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
                being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
                cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
                nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
                it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                alternate titles list.

                The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
                their lord.

                And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
                can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                Sfandra for this).

                The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
                would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
                Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

                At your service,

                Sofya

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Liudmila
                Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So: Il in Dom or Il in Dvor, either way. I think that podvor e was often used in this context, and not
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 23 11:07 PM
                  Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                  Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                  Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.

                  Liudmila









                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


                  My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                  is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                  constructions for a household name?

                  Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                  Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                  that construction?)

                  -- Vitasha






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Patty
                  I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina! Cheers, Lady Patricia of Trakai ... From: Liudmila To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jun 24,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 24 1:51 PM
                    I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina!

                    Cheers,
                    Lady Patricia of Trakai










                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2011 2:03 am
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian




                    Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...



                    Liudmila, the absent

















                    -----Original Message-----

                    From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>

                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>

                    Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am

                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian











                    Thanks Sofya!



                    I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina"

                    rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading

                    through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding

                    households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of

                    people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat"

                    based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I

                    didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few

                    other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm

                    more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the

                    college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and

                    practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )



                    There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really

                    made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in

                    the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.

                    Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that

                    connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.



                    I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of

                    options!



                    Thanks,

                    Sfandra



                    ******************

                    Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova

                    O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom

                    http://sfandra.webs.com

                    Never 'pearl' your butt.

                    ******************



                    ________________________________

                    From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>

                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com

                    Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM

                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian



                    Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!



                    The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"

                    constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of

                    Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full

                    of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the

                    people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a

                    hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.



                    The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,

                    home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the

                    Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents

                    including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as

                    being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.

                    A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",

                    "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built

                    in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by

                    extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include

                    cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a

                    nice term if you see your household as a collection of

                    workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term

                    "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",

                    particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make

                    up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,

                    it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA

                    alternate titles list.



                    The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the

                    word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a

                    prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although

                    they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the

                    closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is

                    especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the

                    heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian

                    equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for

                    their lord.



                    And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You

                    can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and

                    be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something

                    like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of

                    Sfandra for this).



                    The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin

                    (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov

                    would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and

                    Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.



                    At your service,



                    Sofya



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lisa Kies
                    Greetings from Sofya! ... I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor e in Sreznevskii s Dictionary. It s not a term I m familiar with.
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 24 7:19 PM
                      Greetings from Sofya!

                      On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                      > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                      >
                      I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                      Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                      Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                      structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                      (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a court
                      and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.

                      On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                      documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                      dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.

                      On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                      > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                      > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                      > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                      > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                      >

                      I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                      patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                      I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.

                      Genitive case forms:
                      Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                      that's flexible)
                      Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                      (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)

                      Adjectival forms:
                      Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                      Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)

                      At your service,

                      Sofya

                      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                      ___
                      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                      {o,o}
                      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                      (__(|
                      "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                      -^-^-`
                      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Lisa Kies
                      Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group... I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic form, but it wouldn t have the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 24 7:27 PM
                        Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                        I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                        form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                        Druzhina Sfandri

                        Sofya

                        On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                        >
                        > Liudmila, the absent
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lisa Kies
                        Greetings from Sofya! ... It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be Sfandrinskii/aia so: Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and Sfandrinskaia Druzhina
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 24 7:34 PM
                          Greetings from Sofya!

                          On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something like "Sfandriiskii
                          > Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of Sfandra for this).
                          >

                          It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be
                          Sfandrinskii/aia so:

                          Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and
                          Sfandrinskaia Druzhina

                          At your service,

                          Sofya

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          ___
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          {o,o}
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                          (__(|
                          "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                          -^-^-`
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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                        • Amy Tubbs
                          No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post. --Vitasha ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 24 9:09 PM
                            No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post.
                            --Vitasha


                            On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                            > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                            > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                            > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                            > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                            >
                            > Liudmila
                            >
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                            > Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian
                            >
                            > My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                            > is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                            > constructions for a household name?
                            >
                            > Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                            > Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                            > that construction?)
                            >
                            > -- Vitasha
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Howard Rachel
                            Pushkarev s Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has: *Podvorie* - a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that belonged to an outside owner
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 25 10:33 AM
                              Pushkarev's Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has:

                              *Podvorie* - "a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that
                              belonged to an outside owner (like a monsatary or rich land owner)"

                              *podvornik* - "a person who lived and worked in another's household"

                              *dvor* - "Household; homestead; yard; court. In the chronicles dvor
                              sometimes meant the prince's military service men collectively."

                              I believe this differentiates dvor and podvorie significantly, and supports
                              dvor as better in the context of an SCA household.

                              Kazimir, Meridies


                              On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                              > **
                              >
                              >
                              > Greetings from Sofya!
                              >
                              > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                              > > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                              > >
                              > I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                              > Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                              > Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                              > structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                              > (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a
                              > court
                              > and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.
                              >
                              > On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                              > documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                              > dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.
                              >
                              > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                              > > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often
                              > used
                              > > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                              > > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                              > > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                              > >
                              >
                              > I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                              > patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                              > I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.
                              >
                              > Genitive case forms:
                              > Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                              > that's flexible)
                              > Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                              > (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)
                              >
                              > Adjectival forms:
                              > Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                              > Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)
                              >
                              > At your service,
                              >
                              > Sofya
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                              > ___
                              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                              > {o,o}
                              > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                              > (__(|
                              > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                              > -^-^-`
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Sfandra
                              Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....   As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 25 5:04 PM
                                Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                 
                                As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                --Sfandra
                                 

                                ******************

                                From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                Druzhina Sfandri

                                Sofya

                                On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                >
                                >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                >
                                > Liudmila, the absent
                                >


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                              • Sfandra
                                Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!   I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 25 5:10 PM
                                  Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!
                                   
                                  I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to everyone in my household.
                                   
                                  --Sfandra

                                  ******************


                                  From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                                  To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 8:04 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                  Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                   
                                  As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                  "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                  I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                  --Sfandra
                                   

                                  ******************

                                  From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                  Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                  I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                  form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                  Druzhina Sfandri

                                  Sofya

                                  On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                  >
                                  > Liudmila, the absent
                                  >


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                                • Lisa Kies
                                  Greetings from Sofya! ... I didn t forget about you, Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the problem. The problem is that hammered doesn t have the
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 29 6:56 PM
                                    Greetings from Sofya!

                                    On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

                                    > What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
                                    > 'dok


                                    I didn't forget about you, 'Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the
                                    problem. The problem is that "hammered" doesn't have the same double
                                    meaning in Russian as it does in English. No matter what angle I go at it,
                                    no matter what synonyms I pursue, I'm just not finding a very good Russian
                                    translation.

                                    Goat = kozyol (male)
                                    Drunken = p'yanyj, napivshijsya
                                    Smashed = vdryzg p'yanyj or vdrebezgi p'yanyj � blind / dead / stiff drunk
                                    Hammer = molot;
                                    To hammer = bit', udaryat';
                                    hammered/forged = kovanyj
                                    *to forge = kovat', vykovyvat'*, chekanit';
                                    a smithy = kuznitsa, adj. kuznechnyj;
                                    beaten/broken down = razbityj

                                    The best I can come up with is the alliterative "Kuznechnyi Kozyol" which
                                    means "smithy goat" but doesn't include the brewery angle, unless you figure
                                    that a goat that will eat anything will likely drink anything also. Same
                                    problem with Kovanyj Kozyol - hammered/forged goat.

                                    ;-)

                                    Sofya

                                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                    Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                    Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                    ___
                                    http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                    {o,o}
                                    "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                    (__(|
                                    "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                    -^-^-`
                                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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