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Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

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  • Yevgeniya Pechenaya
    So upon further research... Лукоморье is a period word! http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5 I know
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
      So upon further research...
      Лукоморье is a period word!
      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5

      I know wikipedia is not a good source.. I'll do more research when i get home,
      but I'm going to paraphrase rom the wikipedia article:
      Lukomorye according to Slavic mythology Lukomorye is a forbidden and warded
      place on the edge of the universe where grows the world tree, the axis of the
      world which can be used to access other worlds.

      I'm so looking into this when i get home! Ok this is my last email until i get
      home and look up more


      Lada

      Oooooh...
      SHINY!




      ________________________________
      From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya <ladie_lada@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:59:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


      Лукоморье is actually pronounced (Lukomorye) i made a typo...

      Lada

      Oooooh...
      SHINY!

      ________________________________
      From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya <ladie_lada@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:53:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

      Ok this is possibly a bit of a hodgepodge of info that I'm about to spew out.
      the --gorod" or "--grad" ending can be added on to pretty much any word or name
      to form and town name
      ex: Leningrad or Novgorod

      Group names can also come from things like professions, social status,
      geographic locations, tribal name or name of a person they associate with.
      ex: Oprichniki (social status)
      ex2: Казаки́ or Kosaks (i think that's how you spell it) (geographic and social
      status)

      You can also do something like Сфандровцы (Sfandrovtsy) as in those belonging to


      Sfanda
      Actually i think using your last name in this case will be more appropriate:
      You would go with Черниговцы (Chernigovtsy) I'm not sure if that would work
      since you can't do Chernigov

      If you were to turn your first name into a town it'd be something line Сфандров
      (Sfandrov)

      What about your heraldry and badges or anything else that you use? I seem to
      remember you have a patron saint right? Which one?

      How about Лукоморье (Lurkmorye)? potentially not very period but definitely very


      Russian.

      Lada

      Oooooh...
      SHINY!

      ________________________________
      From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
      To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:05:07 PM
      Subject: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

      Hi there everyone!

      I could use a hand from those that actually speak Russian. See, in the
      household to which I belong, all peers are expected to form their own
      'sub-houses'. To give an example, Maitresse Irene LeNoir is a Peer of Haus
      VonDrakenklaue, and Mistress of Chateau LeNoir. So the heads of Haus VDK have
      been bugging me to officially name my household now that I too am a Peer of Haus


      VDK (and when they ALSO wear the Crowns of the Realm, you can't exactly blow
      them off!! :-D ) Sub-houses are usually named according to the Peer's (or
      squire's) persona.

      Truth is... I'm kinda stumped. My initial idea was pointlessly florid and
      horrible, and likely to have been awful in Russian anyway. So now I'm trying
      to think of something either "--gorod" or "--grad" though I think the latter
      might be a post-period structure. Unfortunately, I can't name my household
      "Chernigov" as that's already taken. ;-)

      Has anyone here looked into theoretical household-naming in Russian? Does
      anyone have a household with a russian name? Are there any historical types of
      proper names for a group of people, "Oprichniki" notwithstanding? ;-) Or ideas
      on how to make up a plausibly historical city/town type name?

      Thanks,
      Sfandra

      ******************
      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
      O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
      http://sfandra.webs.com
      Never 'pearl' your butt.
      ******************

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Owlharp@juno.com
      Way back when, in the dawn of time (AS8 or so), my friend Lady Vassilissa and I formed a Russian household and named it Vnuka Dazhboga - the grandchildren of
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
        Way back when, in the dawn of time (AS8 or so), my friend Lady Vassilissa
        and I formed a Russian household and named it "Vnuka Dazhboga" - the
        grandchildren of Dazhbog. It's one of the titles they give to Prince Igor
        in the "Tale of Igor's Campaign". I won't go bail for the linguistic
        correctness, since at that time, I had only had a year of college
        Russian. But it's a good name and the household lasted several years,
        though now it's pretty much in abeyance.

        Fevronia
        ____________________________________________________________
        Groupon.com Official Site
        1 huge daily deal on the best stuff to do in your city. Try it today!
        http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4df91d843352150b95fst02vuc
      • Lisa Kies
        Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra! The problem I see with using the term gorod or other town constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
          Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

          The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
          constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
          Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
          of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
          people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
          hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

          The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
          home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
          Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
          including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
          being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
          A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
          "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
          in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
          extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
          cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
          nice term if you see your household as a collection of
          workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
          "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
          particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
          up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
          it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
          alternate titles list.

          The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
          word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
          prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
          they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
          closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
          especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
          heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
          equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
          their lord.

          And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
          can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
          be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
          like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
          Sfandra for this).

          The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
          (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
          would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
          Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

          At your service,

          Sofya

          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          ___
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          {o,o}
          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          (__(|
          "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
          -^-^-`
          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tim Nalley
          What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave.... dok
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
            What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
            'dok
          • Sfandra
            Thanks Sofya!   I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of Sfandra s Druzhina rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
              Thanks Sofya!  


              I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales.  I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p  )


              There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use.  Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.  Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

              I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

              Thanks,
              Sfandra

              ******************
              Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
              O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
              http://sfandra.webs.com
              Never 'pearl' your butt.
              ******************


              ________________________________
              From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

              Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

              The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
              constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household.  The city of
              Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
              of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute.  Most of the
              people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
              hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

              The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
              home, household.  This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
              Domostroi.  "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
              including children, servants and slaves.  So if you see your household as
              being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
              A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
              "yard" or "estate".  It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
              in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
              extension, the people who live/work there.  These people would include
              cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
              nice term if you see your household as a collection of
              workshops/artisans.  On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
              "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
              particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
              up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars).  Hence,
              it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
              alternate titles list.

              The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
              word for friend, "drug".  These are the (relatively) close companions of a
              prince or boyar.  They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
              they were free to leave his service at will.  I think this term comes the
              closest to the way most people set up their SCA households.  It is
              especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
              heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
              equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
              their lord.

              And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms.  You
              can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
              be "Dom Sfandry".  You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
              like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
              Sfandra for this).

              The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
              (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar.  Sfandrov
              would be the patronymic form of Sfandr.  I admit that Sfandrov and
              Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

              At your service,

              Sofya

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Amy Tubbs
              My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct constructions
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
                My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                constructions for a household name?

                Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                that construction?)

                -- Vitasha

                On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
                >
                > The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                > constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
                > Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was
                > full
                > of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
                > people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                > hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.
                >
                > The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                > home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                > Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                > including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
                > being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                > A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                > "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                > in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                > extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
                > cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be
                > a
                > nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                > workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                > "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                > particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                > up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
                > it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                > alternate titles list.
                >
                > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
                > for
                > their lord.
                >
                > And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
                > can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                > be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                > like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                > Sfandra for this).
                >
                > The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                > (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
                > would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
                > Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.
                >
                > At your service,
                >
                > Sofya
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                > ___
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                > {o,o}
                > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                > (__(|
                > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                > -^-^-`
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sfandra
                ...   So maybe Ilinii druzhina?  Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I m thinking of terms like Radimichi ,
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 21, 2011
                  As Sofya said:
                  > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                  > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                  > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                  > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                  > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                  > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                  > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                  > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
                  > for their lord.
                   
                  So maybe Ilinii druzhina? 

                  Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I'm thinking of terms like "Radimichi", "Viatichi".  I don't know that I've ever seen that suffix used for anything other than rather broad tribal or 'clan' like designations.

                  Still pondering...
                  --Sfandra


                  ******************
                  Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                  O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                  http://sfandra.webs.com
                  Never 'pearl' your butt.
                  ******************


                  ________________________________
                  From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>


                  My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                  is a knight.  His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich.  Would these be correct
                  constructions for a household name?

                  Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                  Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii?  Can you even do
                  that construction?)

                  -- Vitasha

                  On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
                  SNIP

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Liudmila
                  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all... Liudmila, the absent ... From: Sfandra To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
                    Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...

                    Liudmila, the absent








                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian





                    Thanks Sofya!

                    I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )

                    There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station. Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

                    I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

                    Thanks,
                    Sfandra

                    ******************
                    Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                    O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                    http://sfandra.webs.com
                    Never 'pearl' your butt.
                    ******************

                    ________________________________
                    From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                    Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

                    The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                    constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
                    Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
                    of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
                    people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                    hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

                    The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                    home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                    Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                    including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
                    being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                    A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                    "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                    in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                    extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
                    cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
                    nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                    workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                    "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                    particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                    up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
                    it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                    alternate titles list.

                    The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                    word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                    prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                    they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                    closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                    especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                    heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                    equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
                    their lord.

                    And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
                    can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                    be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                    like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                    Sfandra for this).

                    The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                    (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
                    would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
                    Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

                    At your service,

                    Sofya

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Liudmila
                    Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So: Il in Dom or Il in Dvor, either way. I think that podvor e was often used in this context, and not
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
                      Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                      Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                      Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.

                      Liudmila









                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


                      My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                      is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                      constructions for a household name?

                      Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                      Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                      that construction?)

                      -- Vitasha






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Patty
                      I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina! Cheers, Lady Patricia of Trakai ... From: Liudmila To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jun 24,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                        I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina!

                        Cheers,
                        Lady Patricia of Trakai










                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2011 2:03 am
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian




                        Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...



                        Liudmila, the absent

















                        -----Original Message-----

                        From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>

                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>

                        Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am

                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian











                        Thanks Sofya!



                        I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina"

                        rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading

                        through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding

                        households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of

                        people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat"

                        based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I

                        didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few

                        other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm

                        more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the

                        college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and

                        practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )



                        There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really

                        made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in

                        the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.

                        Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that

                        connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.



                        I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of

                        options!



                        Thanks,

                        Sfandra



                        ******************

                        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova

                        O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom

                        http://sfandra.webs.com

                        Never 'pearl' your butt.

                        ******************



                        ________________________________

                        From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>

                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com

                        Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM

                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian



                        Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!



                        The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"

                        constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of

                        Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full

                        of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the

                        people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a

                        hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.



                        The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,

                        home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the

                        Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents

                        including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as

                        being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.

                        A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",

                        "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built

                        in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by

                        extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include

                        cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a

                        nice term if you see your household as a collection of

                        workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term

                        "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",

                        particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make

                        up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,

                        it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA

                        alternate titles list.



                        The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the

                        word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a

                        prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although

                        they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the

                        closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is

                        especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the

                        heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian

                        equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for

                        their lord.



                        And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You

                        can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and

                        be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something

                        like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of

                        Sfandra for this).



                        The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin

                        (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov

                        would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and

                        Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.



                        At your service,



                        Sofya



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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Lisa Kies
                        Greetings from Sofya! ... I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor e in Sreznevskii s Dictionary. It s not a term I m familiar with.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                          Greetings from Sofya!

                          On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                          > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                          >
                          I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                          Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                          Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                          structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                          (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a court
                          and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.

                          On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                          documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                          dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.

                          On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                          > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                          > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                          > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                          > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                          >

                          I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                          patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                          I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.

                          Genitive case forms:
                          Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                          that's flexible)
                          Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                          (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)

                          Adjectival forms:
                          Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                          Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)

                          At your service,

                          Sofya

                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          ___
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          {o,o}
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                          (__(|
                          "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                          -^-^-`
                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lisa Kies
                          Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group... I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic form, but it wouldn t have the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                            Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                            I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                            form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                            Druzhina Sfandri

                            Sofya

                            On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                            >
                            > Liudmila, the absent
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lisa Kies
                            Greetings from Sofya! ... It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be Sfandrinskii/aia so: Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and Sfandrinskaia Druzhina
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                              Greetings from Sofya!

                              On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something like "Sfandriiskii
                              > Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of Sfandra for this).
                              >

                              It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be
                              Sfandrinskii/aia so:

                              Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and
                              Sfandrinskaia Druzhina

                              At your service,

                              Sofya

                              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                              ___
                              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                              {o,o}
                              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                              (__(|
                              "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                              -^-^-`
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Amy Tubbs
                              No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post. --Vitasha ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                                No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post.
                                --Vitasha


                                On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                                > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                                > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                                > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                                >
                                > Liudmila
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                                > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                                > Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian
                                >
                                > My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                                > is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                                > constructions for a household name?
                                >
                                > Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                                > Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                                > that construction?)
                                >
                                > -- Vitasha
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Howard Rachel
                                Pushkarev s Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has: *Podvorie* - a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that belonged to an outside owner
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                                  Pushkarev's Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has:

                                  *Podvorie* - "a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that
                                  belonged to an outside owner (like a monsatary or rich land owner)"

                                  *podvornik* - "a person who lived and worked in another's household"

                                  *dvor* - "Household; homestead; yard; court. In the chronicles dvor
                                  sometimes meant the prince's military service men collectively."

                                  I believe this differentiates dvor and podvorie significantly, and supports
                                  dvor as better in the context of an SCA household.

                                  Kazimir, Meridies


                                  On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Greetings from Sofya!
                                  >
                                  > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                                  > > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                  > >
                                  > I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                                  > Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                                  > Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                                  > structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                                  > (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a
                                  > court
                                  > and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.
                                  >
                                  > On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                                  > documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                                  > dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.
                                  >
                                  > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                                  > > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often
                                  > used
                                  > > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                                  > > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                  > > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                                  > patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                                  > I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.
                                  >
                                  > Genitive case forms:
                                  > Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                                  > that's flexible)
                                  > Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                                  > (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)
                                  >
                                  > Adjectival forms:
                                  > Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                                  > Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)
                                  >
                                  > At your service,
                                  >
                                  > Sofya
                                  >
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                  > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                  > ___
                                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                  > {o,o}
                                  > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                  > (__(|
                                  > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                  > -^-^-`
                                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Sfandra
                                  Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....   As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                                    Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                     
                                    As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                    "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                    I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                    --Sfandra
                                     

                                    ******************

                                    From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                    To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                    Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                    I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                    form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                    Druzhina Sfandri

                                    Sofya

                                    On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                    >
                                    > Liudmila, the absent
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                  • Sfandra
                                    Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!   I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
                                      Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!
                                       
                                      I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to everyone in my household.
                                       
                                      --Sfandra

                                      ******************


                                      From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                                      To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 8:04 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                      Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                       
                                      As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                      "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                      I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                      --Sfandra
                                       

                                      ******************

                                      From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                      Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                      I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                      form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                      Druzhina Sfandri

                                      Sofya

                                      On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                      >
                                      > Liudmila, the absent
                                      >


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                                    • Lisa Kies
                                      Greetings from Sofya! ... I didn t forget about you, Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the problem. The problem is that hammered doesn t have the
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 29, 2011
                                        Greetings from Sofya!

                                        On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

                                        > What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
                                        > 'dok


                                        I didn't forget about you, 'Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the
                                        problem. The problem is that "hammered" doesn't have the same double
                                        meaning in Russian as it does in English. No matter what angle I go at it,
                                        no matter what synonyms I pursue, I'm just not finding a very good Russian
                                        translation.

                                        Goat = kozyol (male)
                                        Drunken = p'yanyj, napivshijsya
                                        Smashed = vdryzg p'yanyj or vdrebezgi p'yanyj � blind / dead / stiff drunk
                                        Hammer = molot;
                                        To hammer = bit', udaryat';
                                        hammered/forged = kovanyj
                                        *to forge = kovat', vykovyvat'*, chekanit';
                                        a smithy = kuznitsa, adj. kuznechnyj;
                                        beaten/broken down = razbityj

                                        The best I can come up with is the alliterative "Kuznechnyi Kozyol" which
                                        means "smithy goat" but doesn't include the brewery angle, unless you figure
                                        that a goat that will eat anything will likely drink anything also. Same
                                        problem with Kovanyj Kozyol - hammered/forged goat.

                                        ;-)

                                        Sofya

                                        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                        ___
                                        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                        {o,o}
                                        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                        (__(|
                                        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                        -^-^-`
                                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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