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Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

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  • Yevgeniya Pechenaya
    Лукоморье is actually pronounced (Lukomorye) i made a typo... Lada Oooooh... SHINY! ________________________________ From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
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      Лукоморье is actually pronounced (Lukomorye) i made a typo...




      Lada

      Oooooh...
      SHINY!




      ________________________________
      From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya <ladie_lada@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:53:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


      Ok this is possibly a bit of a hodgepodge of info that I'm about to spew out.
      the --gorod" or "--grad" ending can be added on to pretty much any word or name
      to form and town name
      ex: Leningrad or Novgorod

      Group names can also come from things like professions, social status,
      geographic locations, tribal name or name of a person they associate with.
      ex: Oprichniki (social status)
      ex2: Казаки́ or Kosaks (i think that's how you spell it) (geographic and social
      status)

      You can also do something like Сфандровцы (Sfandrovtsy) as in those belonging to

      Sfanda
      Actually i think using your last name in this case will be more appropriate:
      You would go with Черниговцы (Chernigovtsy) I'm not sure if that would work
      since you can't do Chernigov

      If you were to turn your first name into a town it'd be something line Сфандров
      (Sfandrov)

      What about your heraldry and badges or anything else that you use? I seem to
      remember you have a patron saint right? Which one?

      How about Лукоморье (Lurkmorye)? potentially not very period but definitely very

      Russian.

      Lada

      Oooooh...
      SHINY!

      ________________________________
      From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
      To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:05:07 PM
      Subject: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

      Hi there everyone!

      I could use a hand from those that actually speak Russian. See, in the
      household to which I belong, all peers are expected to form their own
      'sub-houses'. To give an example, Maitresse Irene LeNoir is a Peer of Haus
      VonDrakenklaue, and Mistress of Chateau LeNoir. So the heads of Haus VDK have
      been bugging me to officially name my household now that I too am a Peer of Haus

      VDK (and when they ALSO wear the Crowns of the Realm, you can't exactly blow
      them off!! :-D ) Sub-houses are usually named according to the Peer's (or
      squire's) persona.

      Truth is... I'm kinda stumped. My initial idea was pointlessly florid and
      horrible, and likely to have been awful in Russian anyway. So now I'm trying
      to think of something either "--gorod" or "--grad" though I think the latter
      might be a post-period structure. Unfortunately, I can't name my household
      "Chernigov" as that's already taken. ;-)

      Has anyone here looked into theoretical household-naming in Russian? Does
      anyone have a household with a russian name? Are there any historical types of
      proper names for a group of people, "Oprichniki" notwithstanding? ;-) Or ideas
      on how to make up a plausibly historical city/town type name?

      Thanks,
      Sfandra

      ******************
      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
      O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
      http://sfandra.webs.com
      Never 'pearl' your butt.
      ******************

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Yevgeniya Pechenaya
      So upon further research... Лукоморье is a period word! http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5 I know
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
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        So upon further research...
        Лукоморье is a period word!
        http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%8C%D0%B5

        I know wikipedia is not a good source.. I'll do more research when i get home,
        but I'm going to paraphrase rom the wikipedia article:
        Lukomorye according to Slavic mythology Lukomorye is a forbidden and warded
        place on the edge of the universe where grows the world tree, the axis of the
        world which can be used to access other worlds.

        I'm so looking into this when i get home! Ok this is my last email until i get
        home and look up more


        Lada

        Oooooh...
        SHINY!




        ________________________________
        From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya <ladie_lada@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:59:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


        Лукоморье is actually pronounced (Lukomorye) i made a typo...

        Lada

        Oooooh...
        SHINY!

        ________________________________
        From: Yevgeniya Pechenaya <ladie_lada@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:53:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

        Ok this is possibly a bit of a hodgepodge of info that I'm about to spew out.
        the --gorod" or "--grad" ending can be added on to pretty much any word or name
        to form and town name
        ex: Leningrad or Novgorod

        Group names can also come from things like professions, social status,
        geographic locations, tribal name or name of a person they associate with.
        ex: Oprichniki (social status)
        ex2: Казаки́ or Kosaks (i think that's how you spell it) (geographic and social
        status)

        You can also do something like Сфандровцы (Sfandrovtsy) as in those belonging to


        Sfanda
        Actually i think using your last name in this case will be more appropriate:
        You would go with Черниговцы (Chernigovtsy) I'm not sure if that would work
        since you can't do Chernigov

        If you were to turn your first name into a town it'd be something line Сфандров
        (Sfandrov)

        What about your heraldry and badges or anything else that you use? I seem to
        remember you have a patron saint right? Which one?

        How about Лукоморье (Lurkmorye)? potentially not very period but definitely very


        Russian.

        Lada

        Oooooh...
        SHINY!

        ________________________________
        From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
        To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 2:05:07 PM
        Subject: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

        Hi there everyone!

        I could use a hand from those that actually speak Russian. See, in the
        household to which I belong, all peers are expected to form their own
        'sub-houses'. To give an example, Maitresse Irene LeNoir is a Peer of Haus
        VonDrakenklaue, and Mistress of Chateau LeNoir. So the heads of Haus VDK have
        been bugging me to officially name my household now that I too am a Peer of Haus


        VDK (and when they ALSO wear the Crowns of the Realm, you can't exactly blow
        them off!! :-D ) Sub-houses are usually named according to the Peer's (or
        squire's) persona.

        Truth is... I'm kinda stumped. My initial idea was pointlessly florid and
        horrible, and likely to have been awful in Russian anyway. So now I'm trying
        to think of something either "--gorod" or "--grad" though I think the latter
        might be a post-period structure. Unfortunately, I can't name my household
        "Chernigov" as that's already taken. ;-)

        Has anyone here looked into theoretical household-naming in Russian? Does
        anyone have a household with a russian name? Are there any historical types of
        proper names for a group of people, "Oprichniki" notwithstanding? ;-) Or ideas
        on how to make up a plausibly historical city/town type name?

        Thanks,
        Sfandra

        ******************
        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
        O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
        http://sfandra.webs.com
        Never 'pearl' your butt.
        ******************

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Owlharp@juno.com
        Way back when, in the dawn of time (AS8 or so), my friend Lady Vassilissa and I formed a Russian household and named it Vnuka Dazhboga - the grandchildren of
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 15, 2011
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          Way back when, in the dawn of time (AS8 or so), my friend Lady Vassilissa
          and I formed a Russian household and named it "Vnuka Dazhboga" - the
          grandchildren of Dazhbog. It's one of the titles they give to Prince Igor
          in the "Tale of Igor's Campaign". I won't go bail for the linguistic
          correctness, since at that time, I had only had a year of college
          Russian. But it's a good name and the household lasted several years,
          though now it's pretty much in abeyance.

          Fevronia
          ____________________________________________________________
          Groupon.com Official Site
          1 huge daily deal on the best stuff to do in your city. Try it today!
          http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4df91d843352150b95fst02vuc
        • Lisa Kies
          Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra! The problem I see with using the term gorod or other town constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
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            Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

            The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
            constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
            Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
            of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
            people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
            hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

            The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
            home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
            Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
            including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
            being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
            A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
            "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
            in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
            extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
            cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
            nice term if you see your household as a collection of
            workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
            "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
            particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
            up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
            it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
            alternate titles list.

            The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
            word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
            prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
            they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
            closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
            especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
            heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
            equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
            their lord.

            And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
            can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
            be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
            like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
            Sfandra for this).

            The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
            (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
            would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
            Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

            At your service,

            Sofya

            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            ___
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            {o,o}
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            (__(|
            "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
            -^-^-`
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tim Nalley
            What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave.... dok
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 19, 2011
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              What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
              'dok
            • Sfandra
              Thanks Sofya!   I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of Sfandra s Druzhina rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks Sofya!  


                I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure.   I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales.  I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p  )


                There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use.  Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.  Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

                I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

                Thanks,
                Sfandra

                ******************
                Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                http://sfandra.webs.com
                Never 'pearl' your butt.
                ******************


                ________________________________
                From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
                Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

                The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household.  The city of
                Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
                of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute.  Most of the
                people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

                The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                home, household.  This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                Domostroi.  "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                including children, servants and slaves.  So if you see your household as
                being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                "yard" or "estate".  It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                extension, the people who live/work there.  These people would include
                cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
                nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                workshops/artisans.  On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars).  Hence,
                it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                alternate titles list.

                The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                word for friend, "drug".  These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                prince or boyar.  They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                they were free to leave his service at will.  I think this term comes the
                closest to the way most people set up their SCA households.  It is
                especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
                their lord.

                And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms.  You
                can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                be "Dom Sfandry".  You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                Sfandra for this).

                The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar.  Sfandrov
                would be the patronymic form of Sfandr.  I admit that Sfandrov and
                Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

                At your service,

                Sofya

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Amy Tubbs
                My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct constructions
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 20, 2011
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                  My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                  is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                  constructions for a household name?

                  Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                  Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                  that construction?)

                  -- Vitasha

                  On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
                  >
                  > The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                  > constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
                  > Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was
                  > full
                  > of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
                  > people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                  > hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.
                  >
                  > The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                  > home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                  > Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                  > including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
                  > being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                  > A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                  > "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                  > in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                  > extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
                  > cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be
                  > a
                  > nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                  > workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                  > "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                  > particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                  > up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
                  > it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                  > alternate titles list.
                  >
                  > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                  > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                  > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                  > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                  > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                  > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                  > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                  > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
                  > for
                  > their lord.
                  >
                  > And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
                  > can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                  > be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                  > like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                  > Sfandra for this).
                  >
                  > The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                  > (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
                  > would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
                  > Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.
                  >
                  > At your service,
                  >
                  > Sofya
                  >
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                  > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                  > ___
                  > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                  > {o,o}
                  > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                  > (__(|
                  > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                  > -^-^-`
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sfandra
                  ...   So maybe Ilinii druzhina?  Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I m thinking of terms like Radimichi ,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 21, 2011
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                    As Sofya said:
                    > The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                    > word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                    > prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                    > they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                    > closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                    > especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                    > heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                    > equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties
                    > for their lord.
                     
                    So maybe Ilinii druzhina? 

                    Is the -ichi suffix usable?  Or is that more of a tribal/ethnic designator?  I'm thinking of terms like "Radimichi", "Viatichi".  I don't know that I've ever seen that suffix used for anything other than rather broad tribal or 'clan' like designations.

                    Still pondering...
                    --Sfandra


                    ******************
                    Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                    O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                    http://sfandra.webs.com
                    Never 'pearl' your butt.
                    ******************


                    ________________________________
                    From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>


                    My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                    is a knight.  His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich.  Would these be correct
                    constructions for a household name?

                    Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                    Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii?  Can you even do
                    that construction?)

                    -- Vitasha

                    On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 10:39 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!
                    SNIP

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Liudmila
                    Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all... Liudmila, the absent ... From: Sfandra To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...

                      Liudmila, the absent








                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian





                      Thanks Sofya!

                      I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina" rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat" based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )

                      There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station. Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.

                      I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of options!

                      Thanks,
                      Sfandra

                      ******************
                      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                      O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
                      http://sfandra.webs.com
                      Never 'pearl' your butt.
                      ******************

                      ________________________________
                      From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                      Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!

                      The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"
                      constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of
                      Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full
                      of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the
                      people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a
                      hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.

                      The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,
                      home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the
                      Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents
                      including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as
                      being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.
                      A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",
                      "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built
                      in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by
                      extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include
                      cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a
                      nice term if you see your household as a collection of
                      workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term
                      "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",
                      particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make
                      up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,
                      it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA
                      alternate titles list.

                      The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the
                      word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a
                      prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although
                      they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the
                      closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is
                      especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the
                      heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian
                      equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for
                      their lord.

                      And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You
                      can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and
                      be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something
                      like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of
                      Sfandra for this).

                      The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin
                      (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov
                      would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and
                      Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.

                      At your service,

                      Sofya

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Liudmila
                      Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So: Il in Dom or Il in Dvor, either way. I think that podvor e was often used in this context, and not
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 23, 2011
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                        Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                        Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                        Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.

                        Liudmila









                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian


                        My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                        is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                        constructions for a household name?

                        Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                        Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                        that construction?)

                        -- Vitasha






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Patty
                        I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina! Cheers, Lady Patricia of Trakai ... From: Liudmila To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jun 24,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I really, really like Sfandrina Druzhina!

                          Cheers,
                          Lady Patricia of Trakai










                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Fri, Jun 24, 2011 2:03 am
                          Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian




                          Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...



                          Liudmila, the absent

















                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>

                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig@yahoogroups.com>

                          Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 5:40 am

                          Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian











                          Thanks Sofya!



                          I was, after a weekend of research, leaning towards more of "Sfandra's Druzhina"

                          rather than any town-type structure. I spent an interesting 2 hours reading

                          through the collected Precedents of the SCA College of Heraldry regarding

                          households, and yes, they do prefer terminology that references a group of

                          people, although they also allow structures like "House Of the Winged Goat"

                          based on english Inn names (Which strikes me as an odd dichotomy, but OK, I

                          didn't write the rules.....), plus a reread of Lay of Igor's Campaign and a few

                          other tales. I don't know that I'll ever register the household name -- I'm

                          more interested in something period russian than SCA-registerable (given the

                          college of heralds have yet to accept certain eastern european symbols and

                          practices.... damn their anglo-centric hides ;-p )



                          There was a passage in Vernadsky's "Kievan Rus" about the druzhina which really

                          made me think it would be a good word to use. Vernadsky implied that service in

                          the druzhina was one of the few ways someone could improve their social station.

                          Given that my household would theoretically consist of apprentices, then that

                          connotation of the word druzhina is appropriate.



                          I do very much like the ones you tossed out, and they're going on the list of

                          options!



                          Thanks,

                          Sfandra



                          ******************

                          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova

                          O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom

                          http://sfandra.webs.com

                          Never 'pearl' your butt.

                          ******************



                          ________________________________

                          From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>

                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com

                          Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 1:39 PM

                          Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian



                          Greetings from Sofya to Sfandra!



                          The problem I see with using the term "gorod" or other "town"

                          constructions, is that a town/fortress is not a household. The city of

                          Yaroslavl may have belonged to Yaroslav and his descendents, but it was full

                          of people who owed them little more than taxes and tribute. Most of the

                          people there would have been virtual strangers to their lord - not a

                          hand-picked circle of associates like our SCA households.



                          The closest literal translation of household would be "dom" meaning house,

                          home, household. This is the origin of one of our favorite texts, the

                          Domostroi. "Dom" refers to the lord/lady and their household dependents

                          including children, servants and slaves. So if you see your household as

                          being your SCA "family", then it's a good term to use.

                          A similar term would be "dvor" usually translated as "court", "courtyard",

                          "yard" or "estate". It refers to the palisaded enclosures that people built

                          in the cities to contain their homes and support structures, and by

                          extension, the people who live/work there. These people would include

                          cooks, leather workers, animal handlers, seamstresses, etc. so it would be a

                          nice term if you see your household as a collection of

                          workshops/artisans. On the other hand, it is the origin of the term

                          "dvorianin" which is usually translated as "courtier" or "servitor",

                          particularly in reference to the prince's "dvor" where the "dvoriane" make

                          up the lower ranks of the prince's retinue (lower than the boyars). Hence,

                          it's inclusion as an alternate title for "lord" on the official SCA

                          alternate titles list.



                          The Russian term for a princely or lordly retinue is "druzhina" from the

                          word for friend, "drug". These are the (relatively) close companions of a

                          prince or boyar. They gave true personal allegiance to their lord, although

                          they were free to leave his service at will. I think this term comes the

                          closest to the way most people set up their SCA households. It is

                          especially appropriate for the chivalry, since the druzhina made up the

                          heavy-cavalry core of a Russian military force, the closest Russian

                          equivalent of knights, but they also had peacetime administrative duties for

                          their lord.



                          And there are a couple of grammatical forms to use with these terms. You

                          can do "X of Y" as in "House of Sfandra" which would use genitive case and

                          be "Dom Sfandry". You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something

                          like "Sfandriiskii Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of

                          Sfandra for this).



                          The patronymic (or rather, metronymic) form of Sfandra would be Sfandrin

                          (masc.) or Sfandrina (fem.) not Sfandrov, per Wickenden's grammar. Sfandrov

                          would be the patronymic form of Sfandr. I admit that Sfandrov and

                          Sfandrovskii sound better than Sfandrin and Sfrandrinskii, though.



                          At your service,



                          Sofya



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lisa Kies
                          Greetings from Sofya! ... I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor e in Sreznevskii s Dictionary. It s not a term I m familiar with.
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Greetings from Sofya!

                            On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                            > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                            >
                            I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                            Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                            Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                            structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                            (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a court
                            and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.

                            On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                            documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                            dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.

                            On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                            > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                            > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                            > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                            > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                            >

                            I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                            patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                            I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.

                            Genitive case forms:
                            Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                            that's flexible)
                            Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                            (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)

                            Adjectival forms:
                            Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                            Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)

                            At your service,

                            Sofya

                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                            ___
                            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                            {o,o}
                            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                            (__(|
                            "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                            -^-^-`
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lisa Kies
                            Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group... I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic form, but it wouldn t have the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
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                              Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                              I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                              form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                              Druzhina Sfandri

                              Sofya

                              On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                              >
                              > Liudmila, the absent
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lisa Kies
                              Greetings from Sofya! ... It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be Sfandrinskii/aia so: Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and Sfandrinskaia Druzhina
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
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                                Greetings from Sofya!

                                On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 12:39 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > You can do "Sfandra's Court" which could be something like "Sfandriiskii
                                > Dvor" (I'll need to check on the exact form of Sfandra for this).
                                >

                                It looks like the adjectival form of Sfandra would actually be
                                Sfandrinskii/aia so:

                                Sfandrinskii Dvor/Dom and
                                Sfandrinskaia Druzhina

                                At your service,

                                Sofya

                                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                ___
                                http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                {o,o}
                                "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                (__(|
                                "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                -^-^-`
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Amy Tubbs
                                No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post. --Vitasha ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 24, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  No, I only just thought of asking when I saw this post.
                                  --Vitasha


                                  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                  > **
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                                  > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often used
                                  > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                                  > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                  > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                                  >
                                  > Liudmila
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                                  > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Mon, Jun 20, 2011 7:08 pm
                                  > Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian
                                  >
                                  > My husband also was looking into formally creating a household now that he
                                  > is a knight. His name is Ilia Aleksandrovich. Would these be correct
                                  > constructions for a household name?
                                  >
                                  > Dom Ilinii or Ilinii Dvor
                                  > Dom Aleksandrovii (or would it need to be Aleksandrovichii? Can you even do
                                  > that construction?)
                                  >
                                  > -- Vitasha
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Howard Rachel
                                  Pushkarev s Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has: *Podvorie* - a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that belonged to an outside owner
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
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                                    Pushkarev's Dictionary of Russian Historical Terms has:

                                    *Podvorie* - "a DVOR (household) in general, esp. a city household that
                                    belonged to an outside owner (like a monsatary or rich land owner)"

                                    *podvornik* - "a person who lived and worked in another's household"

                                    *dvor* - "Household; homestead; yard; court. In the chronicles dvor
                                    sometimes meant the prince's military service men collectively."

                                    I believe this differentiates dvor and podvorie significantly, and supports
                                    dvor as better in the context of an SCA household.

                                    Kazimir, Meridies


                                    On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                                    > **
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Greetings from Sofya!
                                    >
                                    > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > I think that "podvor'e" was often used in this context, and not "dvor,"
                                    > > but have to look it up. In that case, Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                    > >
                                    > I can find only a limited number of period examples of podvor'e in
                                    > Sreznevskii's Dictionary. It's not a term I'm familiar with. Let's see,
                                    > Sreznevskii defines it as "a house with court (dvor) and courtyard
                                    > structures, country estate, residence". Ozhigov defines it as an inn/hostel
                                    > (meaning 1), or a type of hotel intended for clerics (meaning 2), or a
                                    > court
                                    > and vegetable garden on the property of a rural home. So that works.
                                    >
                                    > On the other hand, Sreznevskii has dozens of examples of dvor' from period
                                    > documents. Along with many terms (such as dvorianin, dvornik, dvornyi,
                                    > dvorcheskii, and podvor'e, itself) derived from it.
                                    >
                                    > On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > Did you already ask me and I missed it? Bad laurel... So:
                                    > > Il'in Dom or Il'in Dvor, either way. I think that "podvor'e" was often
                                    > used
                                    > > in this context, and not "dvor," but have to look it up. In that case,
                                    > > Il'ino Podvor'e.
                                    > > Also: Aleksandrovichev Dom or Dvor.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > I would have thought that genitive case would be used here, rather than a
                                    > patronymic form (which is related to genitive case, but not the same). But
                                    > I'm not a native Russian speaker, of course.
                                    >
                                    > Genitive case forms:
                                    > Dom/Dvor Il'i (I'm used to putting the owner's name last but, of course,
                                    > that's flexible)
                                    > Dom/Dvor Aleksandrovicha (of the son of Aleksander) or Aleksandrovichov
                                    > (plural - of the sons of Aleksander, the Aleksandrovichi)
                                    >
                                    > Adjectival forms:
                                    > Il'inskii Dom/Dvor (Il'inskaia Druzhina)
                                    > Aleksandrovskii Dom/Dvor (Aleksandrovskaia Druzhina)
                                    >
                                    > At your service,
                                    >
                                    > Sofya
                                    >
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                    > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                    > ___
                                    > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                    > {o,o}
                                    > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                    > (__(|
                                    > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                    > -^-^-`
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Sfandra
                                    Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....   As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
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                                      Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                       
                                      As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                      "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                      I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                      --Sfandra
                                       

                                      ******************

                                      From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                      Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                      I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                      form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                      Druzhina Sfandri

                                      Sofya

                                      On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                      >
                                      > Liudmila, the absent
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                    • Sfandra
                                      Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!   I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 25, 2011
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                                        Wow, helps if I read ALL the emails before replying!
                                         
                                        I really like Sfandrinskaia Druzhina...  And it has the bonus of probably being unpronounceable to everyone in my household.
                                         
                                        --Sfandra

                                        ******************


                                        From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                                        To: "sig@yahoogroups.com" <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 8:04 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                        Yeah, given rather sharp wit of my housemates, anything that rhymes is asking for trouble....
                                         
                                        As it is, they already tend to sing the following around me:
                                        "Look at me, I'm Sfandra D..."

                                        I like 'dvor'.   Would it be Sfandriskii Dvor?

                                        --Sfandra
                                         

                                        ******************

                                        From: Lisa Kies <lkies319@...>
                                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 10:27 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [sig] Need a household name in Russian

                                        Sounds cute, like the title of an 80s music group...

                                        I still wonder about using the genitive case here instead of a patronymic
                                        form, but it wouldn't have the same ring to it - Druzhina Sfandrina vs.
                                        Druzhina Sfandri

                                        Sofya

                                        On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 1:03 AM, Liudmila <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        >  Sfandrina Druzhina sort of rhymes, and does not sound bad at all...
                                        >
                                        > Liudmila, the absent
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                      • Lisa Kies
                                        Greetings from Sofya! ... I didn t forget about you, Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the problem. The problem is that hammered doesn t have the
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 29, 2011
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                                          Greetings from Sofya!

                                          On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

                                          > What about Hammered Goat (Forge and Brewery)? Its for my mancave....
                                          > 'dok


                                          I didn't forget about you, 'Dok. I just needed some time to devote to the
                                          problem. The problem is that "hammered" doesn't have the same double
                                          meaning in Russian as it does in English. No matter what angle I go at it,
                                          no matter what synonyms I pursue, I'm just not finding a very good Russian
                                          translation.

                                          Goat = kozyol (male)
                                          Drunken = p'yanyj, napivshijsya
                                          Smashed = vdryzg p'yanyj or vdrebezgi p'yanyj � blind / dead / stiff drunk
                                          Hammer = molot;
                                          To hammer = bit', udaryat';
                                          hammered/forged = kovanyj
                                          *to forge = kovat', vykovyvat'*, chekanit';
                                          a smithy = kuznitsa, adj. kuznechnyj;
                                          beaten/broken down = razbityj

                                          The best I can come up with is the alliterative "Kuznechnyi Kozyol" which
                                          means "smithy goat" but doesn't include the brewery angle, unless you figure
                                          that a goat that will eat anything will likely drink anything also. Same
                                          problem with Kovanyj Kozyol - hammered/forged goat.

                                          ;-)

                                          Sofya

                                          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                                          ___
                                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                                          {o,o}
                                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                                          (__(|
                                          "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                                          -^-^-`
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