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Re: [sig] Re: Miner's robes?

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  • Sfandra
    Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion:  some men appear to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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      Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion:  some men appear to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon look.     The detail of the 2 miners holding a shield show very wide bell sleeves, which combined with the chausses are making me think the garment in question may be a variant of a houppelande.  The detail of the miners at work show very fitted sleeves... perhaps the bells are wrapped and tucked tight at the wrist?  Or it may be the overall idea of miners might be representational, not accurate.  After all, how often do very expensive illuminators see miners at work?

      I checked some of the references on those touristy sites - they refer to it as a wool jacket or coat....So, here's a rough theory:  Unbleached or un-dyed 'natural' wool.   It would be 'read' as white in an illumination, but is in fact very cheap basic fabric.  It does seem to have an attached/integral hood, and is pull-over.   I suspect, given the needs of the job, that the detail of the bell-sleeved version is artistic license, and the more fitted sleeves are more accurate.    The next questions I would ask are: who became miners?  Were they considered skilled workers, or serving jail-time?  Was it well paid, or not paid?   How were the mines managed?  Is it possible that all the perkytles might be owned by the people who owned the mine, issued to each worker each day?  In which case, I'd argue for basic generic styling - long straight sleeves.   They would serve as both protection for the worker's own clothing, would stand out in what
      little light might be available from candles/torches underground, and provide warmth for the workers.


      The other thing that might make me think it's a more western influenced garment is the word 'perkytle'.  Superficially, it bears resemblance to the word "kirtle", which is a common term in medieval western clothing for an unstructured layering piece.

      That's my superficial brain dump......
      Cheers,
      --Sfandra


      ******************
      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
      O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
      http://sfandra.webs.com
      Never 'pearl' your butt.
      ******************


      ________________________________


      It looks to me like they're working in their underwear.

      Jan
      ----- Original Message -----

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com , "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > I've been looking at Bohemian manuscripts, and noticed something interesting about silver miners: they are wearing white robes.
      >
      > eg http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=antifonar
      > http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=viden
      >
      > Tourist-y webpages about Kutna Hora seem to call this garment a "perkytle" would anyone here know anything else about it?
      >
      > Any information is appreciated,
      >
      > Asfridhr
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Catherine Olanich Raymond
      I think the attached hoods are what piqued Asfridhr s interest. I don t know of any other medieval artwork that depicts such a garment. ... The detail of the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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        I think the attached hoods are what piqued Asfridhr's interest. I don't
        know of any other medieval artwork that depicts such a garment.

        On 06/13/2011 04:44 PM, Sfandra wrote:
        > Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion: some men appear
        >to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon look.
        The detail of the
        >2 miners holding a shield show very wide bell sleeves, which combined
        with the chausses are making
        > me think the garment in question may be a variant of a houppelande.
        The detail of the miners at
        >work show very fitted sleeves... perhaps the bells are wrapped and
        tucked tight at the wrist?
        >Or it may be the overall idea of miners might be representational, not
        accurate.


        > After all,
        > how often do very expensive illuminators see miners at work?

        I suspect the answer is "not very,"
        >
        > I checked some of the references on those touristy sites - they refer to it as a wool jacket or coat....
        >So, here's a rough theory: Unbleached or un-dyed 'natural' wool. It
        would be 'read' as white in an illumination,
        > but is in fact very cheap basic fabric. It does seem to have an
        attached/integral hood, and is pull-over.

        The "cheap basic fabric" part is probably correct, so it could be washed
        without loss of color being an issue. It might even be linen, which
        could be re-bleached more easily than it could be dyed.


        I suspect, given the needs of the job, that the detail of the
        bell-sleeved version is artistic license,
        and the more fitted sleeves are more accurate. The next questions I
        would ask are: who became miners?
        Were they considered skilled workers, or serving jail-time? Was it
        well paid, or not paid? How were the mines managed?
        Is it possible that all the perkytles might be owned by the people who
        owned the mine, issued to each worker each day?
        In which case, I'd argue for basic generic styling - long straight
        sleeves. They would serve as both protection
        for the worker's own clothing, would stand out in what little light
        might be available from candles/torches underground,
        > and provide warmth for the workers.

        That's true--being more visible in dim light would be a safety feature
        in period; I hadn't thought of that.

        > The other thing that might make me think it's a more western influenced garment is the word 'perkytle'.
        > Superficially, it bears resemblance to the word "kirtle", which is a
        common term in medieval western clothing
        > for an unstructured layering piece.

        Unclear whether there is an actual etymological connection between
        "perkytle" and "kirtle"....

        --
        Cathy Raymond
        cathy@...

        "Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
        --Oliver Wendell Holmes
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