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Re: Miner's robes?

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  • tvorimir
    I sure see the white robes - but check out what ELSE I think I m seeing in the whole psalter page. Those tall wooden things at each side? I think they re vent
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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      I sure see the white robes - but check out what ELSE I think I'm seeing in the whole psalter page. Those tall wooden things at each side? I think they're vent turbine-style windmills I see four paddles on each, and over darkness that looks to me like a vent shaft!!

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > I've been looking at Bohemian manuscripts, and noticed something interesting about silver miners: they are wearing white robes.
      >
      > eg http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=antifonar
      > http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=viden
      >
      > Tourist-y webpages about Kutna Hora seem to call this garment a "perkytle" would anyone here know anything else about it?
      >
      > Any information is appreciated,
      >
      > Asfridhr
      >
    • jjbober4@comcast.net
      It looks to me like they re working in their underwear. Jan ... From: tvorimir To: sig@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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        It looks to me like they're working in their underwear.

        Jan
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "tvorimir" <mir.plemmons@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 12:17:19 PM
        Subject: [sig] Re: Miner's robes?






        I sure see the white robes - but check out what ELSE I think I'm seeing in the whole psalter page. Those tall wooden things at each side? I think they're vent turbine-style windmills I see four paddles on each, and over darkness that looks to me like a vent shaft!!

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com , "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I've been looking at Bohemian manuscripts, and noticed something interesting about silver miners: they are wearing white robes.
        >
        > eg http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=antifonar
        > http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=viden
        >
        > Tourist-y webpages about Kutna Hora seem to call this garment a "perkytle" would anyone here know anything else about it?
        >
        > Any information is appreciated,
        >
        > Asfridhr
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sfandra
        Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion:  some men appear to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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          Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion:  some men appear to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon look.     The detail of the 2 miners holding a shield show very wide bell sleeves, which combined with the chausses are making me think the garment in question may be a variant of a houppelande.  The detail of the miners at work show very fitted sleeves... perhaps the bells are wrapped and tucked tight at the wrist?  Or it may be the overall idea of miners might be representational, not accurate.  After all, how often do very expensive illuminators see miners at work?

          I checked some of the references on those touristy sites - they refer to it as a wool jacket or coat....So, here's a rough theory:  Unbleached or un-dyed 'natural' wool.   It would be 'read' as white in an illumination, but is in fact very cheap basic fabric.  It does seem to have an attached/integral hood, and is pull-over.   I suspect, given the needs of the job, that the detail of the bell-sleeved version is artistic license, and the more fitted sleeves are more accurate.    The next questions I would ask are: who became miners?  Were they considered skilled workers, or serving jail-time?  Was it well paid, or not paid?   How were the mines managed?  Is it possible that all the perkytles might be owned by the people who owned the mine, issued to each worker each day?  In which case, I'd argue for basic generic styling - long straight sleeves.   They would serve as both protection for the worker's own clothing, would stand out in what
          little light might be available from candles/torches underground, and provide warmth for the workers.


          The other thing that might make me think it's a more western influenced garment is the word 'perkytle'.  Superficially, it bears resemblance to the word "kirtle", which is a common term in medieval western clothing for an unstructured layering piece.

          That's my superficial brain dump......
          Cheers,
          --Sfandra


          ******************
          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
          O.L., O.M., K.O.E., Haus VDK, East Kingdom
          http://sfandra.webs.com
          Never 'pearl' your butt.
          ******************


          ________________________________


          It looks to me like they're working in their underwear.

          Jan
          ----- Original Message -----

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com , "Quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          >
          > I've been looking at Bohemian manuscripts, and noticed something interesting about silver miners: they are wearing white robes.
          >
          > eg http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=antifonar
          > http://cantica.kh.cz/grad/index_en.php?page=viden
          >
          > Tourist-y webpages about Kutna Hora seem to call this garment a "perkytle" would anyone here know anything else about it?
          >
          > Any information is appreciated,
          >
          > Asfridhr
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Catherine Olanich Raymond
          I think the attached hoods are what piqued Asfridhr s interest. I don t know of any other medieval artwork that depicts such a garment. ... The detail of the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 13, 2011
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            I think the attached hoods are what piqued Asfridhr's interest. I don't
            know of any other medieval artwork that depicts such a garment.

            On 06/13/2011 04:44 PM, Sfandra wrote:
            > Given the time period, I see closer ties to western european fashion: some men appear
            >to have hose/chausses rolled to below the knee, a not-uncommon look.
            The detail of the
            >2 miners holding a shield show very wide bell sleeves, which combined
            with the chausses are making
            > me think the garment in question may be a variant of a houppelande.
            The detail of the miners at
            >work show very fitted sleeves... perhaps the bells are wrapped and
            tucked tight at the wrist?
            >Or it may be the overall idea of miners might be representational, not
            accurate.


            > After all,
            > how often do very expensive illuminators see miners at work?

            I suspect the answer is "not very,"
            >
            > I checked some of the references on those touristy sites - they refer to it as a wool jacket or coat....
            >So, here's a rough theory: Unbleached or un-dyed 'natural' wool. It
            would be 'read' as white in an illumination,
            > but is in fact very cheap basic fabric. It does seem to have an
            attached/integral hood, and is pull-over.

            The "cheap basic fabric" part is probably correct, so it could be washed
            without loss of color being an issue. It might even be linen, which
            could be re-bleached more easily than it could be dyed.


            I suspect, given the needs of the job, that the detail of the
            bell-sleeved version is artistic license,
            and the more fitted sleeves are more accurate. The next questions I
            would ask are: who became miners?
            Were they considered skilled workers, or serving jail-time? Was it
            well paid, or not paid? How were the mines managed?
            Is it possible that all the perkytles might be owned by the people who
            owned the mine, issued to each worker each day?
            In which case, I'd argue for basic generic styling - long straight
            sleeves. They would serve as both protection
            for the worker's own clothing, would stand out in what little light
            might be available from candles/torches underground,
            > and provide warmth for the workers.

            That's true--being more visible in dim light would be a safety feature
            in period; I hadn't thought of that.

            > The other thing that might make me think it's a more western influenced garment is the word 'perkytle'.
            > Superficially, it bears resemblance to the word "kirtle", which is a
            common term in medieval western clothing
            > for an unstructured layering piece.

            Unclear whether there is an actual etymological connection between
            "perkytle" and "kirtle"....

            --
            Cathy Raymond
            cathy@...

            "Beware how you take away hope from another human being."
            --Oliver Wendell Holmes
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