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Re: Slavic and Latin "Mistress" honorary

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  • Rosie
    ... Congratulations! ... Nawojka
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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      > Dear friends,
      >
      > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
      > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
      > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).


      Congratulations!


      :)
      Nawojka
    • Lisa Kies
      Greetings from Sofya to Lidia! ... Congratulations! ... years pondering it as I ve been revising the Russian alternate titles list. ... One problem is that the
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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        Greetings from Sofya to Lidia!

        On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...>wrote:

        > Dear friends,
        >
        > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that
        > I received
        > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the
        > Hawkwood
        > Howl event in Atlantia (Asheville, NC).
        >
        Congratulations!


        >
        > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really
        > think
        > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress. As with
        > my
        > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title
        > "MAGISTRA."
        > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress.
        >
        > Oh, what an interesting question... I've only spent the last couple of
        years pondering it as I've been revising the Russian alternate titles list.
        :-)

        One problem is that the terms "Master" and "Mistress" have a wide range of
        meanings in English. In Russian, these different meanings have different
        translations.

        A "master" in the sense of a "master craftsman" would be "master" and the
        feminine would be "masteritsa" - this is fine for our Laurels, but a bit of
        a stretch for everyone else.
        Master/mistress in the sense of "mistress of the household" or "master and
        slave" would be "gospodin/gospozha" (and variations thereof) but that isn't
        really a "title of rank."

        In English, master can be an official title of very high rank - as in the
        Master of the Teutonic Order. In the Russian Chronicles, this title exact
        title is written as "Mester" (not to be confused with "master",
        apparently). But this idea doesn't really fit our Peers - since they're not
        all be "in charge" of the order.
        I had hoped to get "boiarin/boiarynia" passed as the Russian title most
        equivalent to "Peer of the Realm" as another option, but that's been more
        difficult than anticipated. But you might find the Croation equivalent to
        your liking.

        At your service,

        Sofya

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        ___
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        {o,o}
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        (__(|
        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        -^-^-`
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Quokkaqueen
        Congratulations! =) The Latin magistra is usually translated as mistress , but it also means teacher . Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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          Congratulations! =)

          The Latin "magistra" is usually translated as "mistress", but it also means "teacher". Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers that could work? (I can't tell if 'učiteljica' is used as a title or not.)

          Wikipedia says one of the first Croatian dictionaries was
          Fausto Veranzio (Vrančić) "Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europæ linguarum, Latinæ, Italicæ, Germanicæ, Dalmatiæ, & Vulgaricæ", Apud Nicolaum Morettum, 1595, Venice
          http://books.google.com/books?id=oFlgAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Fausto+Veranzio&as_brr=4&hl=en&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

          Along the row for "Magister" (masculine) it gives:
          Italian: Maestro
          German: Meister
          Dalmatic: Mestar
          Hungarian: Mester

          I haven't been able to find any other free scans of 16th c. dictionaries online, but there is a list of them here: http://www.ihjj.hr/oHrJeziku-rjecnici.html
          and it looks like you might be able to order copies of them, or you could ask your cousin to look for them in a library?
          eg. 1599 dictionary, http://www.ks.hr/knjizara.php?id=470

          Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.
          ~Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:

          > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
          > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
          > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
        • Patricia Hefner
          Yeah, it s nice to have a new Laurel in the SIG. THL Isabelle de Foix   blog URL: http://verte76.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From:
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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            Yeah, it's nice to have a new Laurel in the SIG.
            THL Isabelle de Foix
             
            blog URL: http://verte76.blogspot.com/




            ________________________________
            From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 6:28:46 PM
            Subject: [sig] Re: Slavic and Latin "Mistress" honorary

             
            Congratulations! =)

            The Latin "magistra" is usually translated as "mistress", but it also means
            "teacher". Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers that could work?
            (I can't tell if 'učiteljica' is used as a title or not.)

            Wikipedia says one of the first Croatian dictionaries was
            Fausto Veranzio (Vrančić) "Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europæ
            linguarum, Latinæ, Italicæ, Germanicæ, Dalmatiæ, & Vulgaricæ", Apud Nicolaum
            Morettum, 1595, Venice
            http://books.google.com/books?id=oFlgAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Fausto+Veranzio&as_brr=4&hl=en&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false


            Along the row for "Magister" (masculine) it gives:
            Italian: Maestro
            German: Meister
            Dalmatic: Mestar
            Hungarian: Mester

            I haven't been able to find any other free scans of 16th c. dictionaries online,
            but there is a list of them here: http://www.ihjj.hr/oHrJeziku-rjecnici.html
            and it looks like you might be able to order copies of them, or you could ask
            your cousin to look for them in a library?

            eg. 1599 dictionary, http://www.ks.hr/knjizara.php?id=470

            Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.
            ~Asfridhr

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:

            > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
            > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
            > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lee
            Lidia, It is very hard to find the right kind of word that describes a female master . The one you chose Majstorica is actually someone who builds things.
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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              Lidia,

              It is very hard to find the right kind of word that describes a female "master". The one you chose "Majstorica" is actually someone who builds things. If used in a sentence as a statement to someone, then it means that you've mastered something. If you own an establishment "Gazdarica, Gospodarica" is what you would be using. "Gospoda" means "Mrs." The closest you can come to being called Mistress in the SCA would probably be "Majstorica". But, if you do find a correct one. It would be good if I knew, too. I'm wondering if you can get away with being called that if all your reseaching yeilds only that one title that may fit. Good luck. See you soon.

              YiS
              Branimira of the Isles, Crown Province of Ostgardr. East Kingdom.


              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear friends,
              >
              > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
              > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
              > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
              >
              > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
              > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
              > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
              > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
              > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
              > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
              > as a title in Croatian.
              >
              > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
              > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
              >
              > YIS,
              > Lidia
              >
              > Visit Lidia de Ragusa online at http://home.roadrunner.com/~lkleovic/
              >
              >
              > Per bend sinister azure and argent, a sun in splendor Or and a fox passant
              > azure.
              >
              >
              > What's my latest fiber project?
              > http://lidia-ragusa.diaryland.com/
              >
              >
              > "Respect is what we owe; love, what we give." --Philip James Bailey
              >
              >
              > "A good deed is never lost: he who sows courtesy reaps friendship; and
              > he who plants kindness gathers love." --Basil
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Owlharp@juno.com
              Lidia, my heartiest congratulations to you! I just wish we were going to be down there on the 30th to attend your vigil. My own instinctive reply to your
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 15, 2010
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                Lidia, my heartiest congratulations to you! I just wish we were going to
                be down there on the 30th to attend your vigil.

                My own instinctive reply to your question - at least from a Russian point
                of view - is the term "khozyayka", which means Mistress of the house but
                in the medieval understanding of it as explained in the Domostroy, such a
                person is expected to be the resident expert on all sorts of activities.
                To me, this is the closest fit.

                Mistress Fevronia Murometsa

                ____________________________________________________________
                Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
                http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
              • Suzanne
                Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam! My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of master, host, boss , but there are no historical notes so I
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 16, 2010
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                  Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam!

                  My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of "master, host, boss", but there are no historical notes so I can't say if this is appropriate to your period. (I also can't tell if it's a Serbian variant rather than Croatian.)

                  It's an interesting question--I'm looking forward to hearing the answer(s).

                  YIS,
                  Susanna de l'Essart


                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear friends,
                  >
                  > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
                  > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
                  > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
                  >
                  > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                  > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                  > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
                  > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
                  > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
                  > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
                  > as a title in Croatian.
                  >
                  > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
                  > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
                  >
                  > YIS,
                  > Lidia
                  >
                • Lee
                  Hello. Gazdrica is just a term we use for someone who is in charge of, or an owner of an establishment or house. Moslty this is a term we use for an owner
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 18, 2010
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                    Hello.

                    "Gazdrica" is just a term we use for someone who is in charge of, or an owner of an establishment or house. Moslty this is a term we use for an owner of a house. I have not heard this term used to describe as a female Master of a trade. Not in modern terms or during the Middle Ages. I will keep my ears glued for more info. Hope this was helpful.

                    YiS
                    Branimira.
                    East Kingdom.

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne" <sovagris@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam!
                    >
                    > My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of "master, host, boss", but there are no historical notes so I can't say if this is appropriate to your period. (I also can't tell if it's a Serbian variant rather than Croatian.)
                    >
                    > It's an interesting question--I'm looking forward to hearing the answer(s).
                    >
                    > YIS,
                    > Susanna de l'Essart
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear friends,
                    > >
                    > > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
                    > > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
                    > > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
                    > >
                    > > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                    > > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                    > > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
                    > > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
                    > > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
                    > > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
                    > > as a title in Croatian.
                    > >
                    > > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
                    > > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
                    > >
                    > > YIS,
                    > > Lidia
                    > >
                    >
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