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Slavic and Latin "Mistress" honorary

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  • Lydia Leovic
    Dear friends, It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 12, 2010
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      Dear friends,

      It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
      my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
      Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).

      I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
      there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
      passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
      Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
      Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
      sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
      as a title in Croatian.

      If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
      words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.

      YIS,
      Lidia

      Visit Lidia de Ragusa online at http://home.roadrunner.com/~lkleovic/


      Per bend sinister azure and argent, a sun in splendor Or and a fox passant
      azure.


      What's my latest fiber project?
      http://lidia-ragusa.diaryland.com/


      "Respect is what we owe; love, what we give." --Philip James Bailey


      "A good deed is never lost: he who sows courtesy reaps friendship; and
      he who plants kindness gathers love." --Basil




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tim Nalley
      Congrats, Sister,welcome to the Order! My standard soundbyte of very questionable vigil advice is, The wreath can be either a horseshoe or a toilet seat,
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 12, 2010
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        Congrats, Sister,welcome to the Order! My standard soundbyte of very questionable vigil advice is, "The wreath can be either a horseshoe or a toilet seat, dependent on the wearer's actions". A decade later, its still one heck of a show on the inside!
        In future years if you can spare some time I'd love a chance to visit with you at either Pennsic or at some event in Nottinghill Coill concerning Atlantian A/S! My Lady and I also own land in Orangeburg so any time you can spare would be much appreciated! Congrats again!
        Best regards,
        'doch aka Mordoch Timofeivich Rostovskogo

        On Tue Oct 12th, 2010 10:50 AM EDT Lydia Leovic wrote:

        >Dear friends,
        >
        >It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
        >my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
        >Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
        >
        >I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
        >there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
        >passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
        >Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
        >Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
        >sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
        >as a title in Croatian.
        >
        >If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
        >words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
        >
        >YIS,
        >Lidia
        >
        >Visit Lidia de Ragusa online at http://home.roadrunner.com/~lkleovic/
        >
        >
        >Per bend sinister azure and argent, a sun in splendor Or and a fox passant
        >azure.
        >
        >
        >What's my latest fiber project?
        >http://lidia-ragusa.diaryland.com/
        >
        >
        >"Respect is what we owe; love, what we give." --Philip James Bailey
        >
        >
        >"A good deed is never lost: he who sows courtesy reaps friendship; and
        >he who plants kindness gathers love." --Basil
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Rosie
        ... Congratulations! ... Nawojka
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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          > Dear friends,
          >
          > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
          > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
          > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).


          Congratulations!


          :)
          Nawojka
        • Lisa Kies
          Greetings from Sofya to Lidia! ... Congratulations! ... years pondering it as I ve been revising the Russian alternate titles list. ... One problem is that the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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            Greetings from Sofya to Lidia!

            On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...>wrote:

            > Dear friends,
            >
            > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that
            > I received
            > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the
            > Hawkwood
            > Howl event in Atlantia (Asheville, NC).
            >
            Congratulations!


            >
            > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really
            > think
            > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress. As with
            > my
            > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title
            > "MAGISTRA."
            > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress.
            >
            > Oh, what an interesting question... I've only spent the last couple of
            years pondering it as I've been revising the Russian alternate titles list.
            :-)

            One problem is that the terms "Master" and "Mistress" have a wide range of
            meanings in English. In Russian, these different meanings have different
            translations.

            A "master" in the sense of a "master craftsman" would be "master" and the
            feminine would be "masteritsa" - this is fine for our Laurels, but a bit of
            a stretch for everyone else.
            Master/mistress in the sense of "mistress of the household" or "master and
            slave" would be "gospodin/gospozha" (and variations thereof) but that isn't
            really a "title of rank."

            In English, master can be an official title of very high rank - as in the
            Master of the Teutonic Order. In the Russian Chronicles, this title exact
            title is written as "Mester" (not to be confused with "master",
            apparently). But this idea doesn't really fit our Peers - since they're not
            all be "in charge" of the order.
            I had hoped to get "boiarin/boiarynia" passed as the Russian title most
            equivalent to "Peer of the Realm" as another option, but that's been more
            difficult than anticipated. But you might find the Croation equivalent to
            your liking.

            At your service,

            Sofya

            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            ___
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            {o,o}
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            (__(|
            "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
            -^-^-`
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Quokkaqueen
            Congratulations! =) The Latin magistra is usually translated as mistress , but it also means teacher . Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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              Congratulations! =)

              The Latin "magistra" is usually translated as "mistress", but it also means "teacher". Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers that could work? (I can't tell if 'učiteljica' is used as a title or not.)

              Wikipedia says one of the first Croatian dictionaries was
              Fausto Veranzio (Vrančić) "Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europæ linguarum, Latinæ, Italicæ, Germanicæ, Dalmatiæ, & Vulgaricæ", Apud Nicolaum Morettum, 1595, Venice
              http://books.google.com/books?id=oFlgAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Fausto+Veranzio&as_brr=4&hl=en&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

              Along the row for "Magister" (masculine) it gives:
              Italian: Maestro
              German: Meister
              Dalmatic: Mestar
              Hungarian: Mester

              I haven't been able to find any other free scans of 16th c. dictionaries online, but there is a list of them here: http://www.ihjj.hr/oHrJeziku-rjecnici.html
              and it looks like you might be able to order copies of them, or you could ask your cousin to look for them in a library?
              eg. 1599 dictionary, http://www.ks.hr/knjizara.php?id=470

              Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.
              ~Asfridhr

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:

              > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
              > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
              > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
            • Patricia Hefner
              Yeah, it s nice to have a new Laurel in the SIG. THL Isabelle de Foix   blog URL: http://verte76.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ From:
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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                Yeah, it's nice to have a new Laurel in the SIG.
                THL Isabelle de Foix
                 
                blog URL: http://verte76.blogspot.com/




                ________________________________
                From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 6:28:46 PM
                Subject: [sig] Re: Slavic and Latin "Mistress" honorary

                 
                Congratulations! =)

                The Latin "magistra" is usually translated as "mistress", but it also means
                "teacher". Is there a Croatian title that is used by teachers that could work?
                (I can't tell if 'učiteljica' is used as a title or not.)

                Wikipedia says one of the first Croatian dictionaries was
                Fausto Veranzio (Vrančić) "Dictionarium quinque nobilissimarum Europæ
                linguarum, Latinæ, Italicæ, Germanicæ, Dalmatiæ, & Vulgaricæ", Apud Nicolaum
                Morettum, 1595, Venice
                http://books.google.com/books?id=oFlgAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Fausto+Veranzio&as_brr=4&hl=en&cd=1#v=onepage&q&f=false


                Along the row for "Magister" (masculine) it gives:
                Italian: Maestro
                German: Meister
                Dalmatic: Mestar
                Hungarian: Mester

                I haven't been able to find any other free scans of 16th c. dictionaries online,
                but there is a list of them here: http://www.ihjj.hr/oHrJeziku-rjecnici.html
                and it looks like you might be able to order copies of them, or you could ask
                your cousin to look for them in a library?

                eg. 1599 dictionary, http://www.ks.hr/knjizara.php?id=470

                Not very helpful, I know. Sorry.
                ~Asfridhr

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:

                > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lee
                Lidia, It is very hard to find the right kind of word that describes a female master . The one you chose Majstorica is actually someone who builds things.
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 13, 2010
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                  Lidia,

                  It is very hard to find the right kind of word that describes a female "master". The one you chose "Majstorica" is actually someone who builds things. If used in a sentence as a statement to someone, then it means that you've mastered something. If you own an establishment "Gazdarica, Gospodarica" is what you would be using. "Gospoda" means "Mrs." The closest you can come to being called Mistress in the SCA would probably be "Majstorica". But, if you do find a correct one. It would be good if I knew, too. I'm wondering if you can get away with being called that if all your reseaching yeilds only that one title that may fit. Good luck. See you soon.

                  YiS
                  Branimira of the Isles, Crown Province of Ostgardr. East Kingdom.


                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear friends,
                  >
                  > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
                  > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
                  > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
                  >
                  > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                  > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                  > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
                  > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
                  > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
                  > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
                  > as a title in Croatian.
                  >
                  > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
                  > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
                  >
                  > YIS,
                  > Lidia
                  >
                  > Visit Lidia de Ragusa online at http://home.roadrunner.com/~lkleovic/
                  >
                  >
                  > Per bend sinister azure and argent, a sun in splendor Or and a fox passant
                  > azure.
                  >
                  >
                  > What's my latest fiber project?
                  > http://lidia-ragusa.diaryland.com/
                  >
                  >
                  > "Respect is what we owe; love, what we give." --Philip James Bailey
                  >
                  >
                  > "A good deed is never lost: he who sows courtesy reaps friendship; and
                  > he who plants kindness gathers love." --Basil
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Owlharp@juno.com
                  Lidia, my heartiest congratulations to you! I just wish we were going to be down there on the 30th to attend your vigil. My own instinctive reply to your
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 15, 2010
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                    Lidia, my heartiest congratulations to you! I just wish we were going to
                    be down there on the 30th to attend your vigil.

                    My own instinctive reply to your question - at least from a Russian point
                    of view - is the term "khozyayka", which means Mistress of the house but
                    in the medieval understanding of it as explained in the Domostroy, such a
                    person is expected to be the resident expert on all sorts of activities.
                    To me, this is the closest fit.

                    Mistress Fevronia Murometsa

                    ____________________________________________________________
                    Get Free Email with Video Mail & Video Chat!
                    http://www.juno.com/freeemail?refcd=JUTAGOUT1FREM0210
                  • Suzanne
                    Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam! My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of master, host, boss , but there are no historical notes so I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 16, 2010
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                      Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam!

                      My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of "master, host, boss", but there are no historical notes so I can't say if this is appropriate to your period. (I also can't tell if it's a Serbian variant rather than Croatian.)

                      It's an interesting question--I'm looking forward to hearing the answer(s).

                      YIS,
                      Susanna de l'Essart


                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear friends,
                      >
                      > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
                      > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
                      > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
                      >
                      > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                      > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                      > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
                      > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
                      > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
                      > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
                      > as a title in Croatian.
                      >
                      > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
                      > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
                      >
                      > YIS,
                      > Lidia
                      >
                    • Lee
                      Hello. Gazdrica is just a term we use for someone who is in charge of, or an owner of an establishment or house. Moslty this is a term we use for an owner
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 18, 2010
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                        Hello.

                        "Gazdrica" is just a term we use for someone who is in charge of, or an owner of an establishment or house. Moslty this is a term we use for an owner of a house. I have not heard this term used to describe as a female Master of a trade. Not in modern terms or during the Middle Ages. I will keep my ears glued for more info. Hope this was helpful.

                        YiS
                        Branimira.
                        East Kingdom.

                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Suzanne" <sovagris@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wonderful! Huzzah!! ^Cestitam!
                        >
                        > My dictionary suggests Gazdarica as the feminine equivalent of "master, host, boss", but there are no historical notes so I can't say if this is appropriate to your period. (I also can't tell if it's a Serbian variant rather than Croatian.)
                        >
                        > It's an interesting question--I'm looking forward to hearing the answer(s).
                        >
                        > YIS,
                        > Susanna de l'Essart
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lydia Leovic <lidia_de_ragusa@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear friends,
                        > >
                        > > It is with gratefulness and humility that I share with you all that I received
                        > > my Writ for the Order of the Laurel and will sit Vigil on 10/30 at the Hawkwood
                        > > Howl event in Atlantia  (Asheville, NC).
                        > >
                        > > I have been talking with my cousin from Zagreb, and he does not really think
                        > > there is a Croatian honorarium title that is accurately Mistress.  As with my
                        > > passed SCA name, I expect to have to Latinize the Mistress title "MAGISTRA." 
                        > > Yet, I am interested in knowing a Slavic equivalent to Mistress. 
                        > > Google translate is not going to help  us, though.  For instance, I like the
                        > > sound of "Majstorica,"  but my cousin Danijel did not think that was a word used
                        > > as a title in Croatian.
                        > >
                        > > If anyone on this list has an understanding of this issue and would offer me
                        > > words of advice, I would greatly appreciate it.
                        > >
                        > > YIS,
                        > > Lidia
                        > >
                        >
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