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RE: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?

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  • jpkowal@mymts.net
    Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
      Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a fluer des lis? The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary. He pulled out a photocopied binder with documentation, He showed me pictographs of the design that were a symbol of a deity. In fact the four panels with the symbols were an attempt to create a bit of a charmed hat for good fortune. So I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
      Regards,
      AVL

      > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > From: hodgepatch@...
      > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:05:36 -0600
      > Subject: Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?
      >
      > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
      > >
      > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
      > > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
      > > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
      > >
      > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
      > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
      > >
      > > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
      > >
      > >
      > > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
      > > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%c3%8b%c3%92%c3%89%c3%8e/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
      > > òÏÓÓÉÊÓËÁÑ%20ÁÒÈÉÔÅËÔÕÒÁ/ëÒÉÎ/
      > >
      > > At your service,
      > >
      > > Sofya
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
      > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      > > ___
      > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
      > > {o,o}
      > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      > > (__(|
      > > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
      > > -^-^-`
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
      > http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
      > the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
      > description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
      > lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
      > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
      > within a heart?
      >
      > I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
      > felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
      > my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
      > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
      > digging on I suppose.
      >
      > Thank you so much,
      >
      > Praksedys
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisa Kies
      Greetings from Sofya ... I d be surprised if the motif wasn t even older than that, especially if it is decended from a Greek lily. ... Well, that may be true
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
        Greetings from Sofya

        On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:07 AM, <jpkowal@...> wrote:

        >
        > Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War
        > outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to
        > 400-800ad with a fluer des lis?


        I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if it
        is decended from a Greek lily.


        > The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary... So
        > I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs
        > were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
        >
        Well, that may be true but since Hungarians are not Slavs, the work of
        Hungarian craftpeople would hardly be evidence of that. ;-)

        Unless the documentation was for a Slavic rather than a Hungarian origin?

        Sofya


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hastings Sanderson
        ... The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit, its
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 9, 2010
          On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if
          > itis decended from a Greek lily.
          >
          >
          The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in
          a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit,
          its the bird fragment. The border is composed of the motif.
          http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/museums/shm/shmpazyryk.html Part of
          what I found so fascinating is that the border from this carpet or
          wallhanging is almost identical to those found later in other medium e.g.
          illumination, metalwork etc.


          -Praksedys


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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