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Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?

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  • Lisa Kies
    ... Thank you for sharing that interesting article! ... Yes, that is how I have seen the term used. ... Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
      On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Hastings Sanderson <hodgepatch@...>wrote:

      > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
      > >
      > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif],
      > inscribed
      > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
      > >
      > >
      > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
      > >
      > >
      > Thank you Mistress Sofya.


      Thank you for sharing that interesting article!


      > Am I understanding correctly that the
      > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
      > within a heart?
      >
      Yes, that is how I have seen the term used.

      >
      > ... if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
      > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis?


      Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a fleur-de-lis. Putting it
      within a heart or arch would help differentiate it from the vast horde of
      other fleur-de-lis registered in the SCA and make it look more Russian, but
      could be a challenge to blazon in proper heraldic terminology.


      > Some fun questions to do a bit of digging on I suppose.
      >
      > Enjoy!

      Sofya


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jpkowal@mymts.net
      Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
        Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a fluer des lis? The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary. He pulled out a photocopied binder with documentation, He showed me pictographs of the design that were a symbol of a deity. In fact the four panels with the symbols were an attempt to create a bit of a charmed hat for good fortune. So I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
        Regards,
        AVL

        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > From: hodgepatch@...
        > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:05:36 -0600
        > Subject: Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?
        >
        > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
        > >
        > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
        > > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
        > > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
        > >
        > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
        > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
        > >
        > > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
        > >
        > >
        > > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
        > > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%c3%8b%c3%92%c3%89%c3%8e/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
        > > òÏÓÓÉÊÓËÁÑ%20ÁÒÈÉÔÅËÔÕÒÁ/ëÒÉÎ/
        > >
        > > At your service,
        > >
        > > Sofya
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        > > ___
        > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
        > > {o,o}
        > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        > > (__(|
        > > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        > > -^-^-`
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
        > http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
        > the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
        > description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
        > lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
        > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
        > within a heart?
        >
        > I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
        > felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
        > my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
        > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
        > digging on I suppose.
        >
        > Thank you so much,
        >
        > Praksedys
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lisa Kies
        Greetings from Sofya ... I d be surprised if the motif wasn t even older than that, especially if it is decended from a Greek lily. ... Well, that may be true
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
          Greetings from Sofya

          On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:07 AM, <jpkowal@...> wrote:

          >
          > Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War
          > outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to
          > 400-800ad with a fluer des lis?


          I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if it
          is decended from a Greek lily.


          > The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary... So
          > I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs
          > were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
          >
          Well, that may be true but since Hungarians are not Slavs, the work of
          Hungarian craftpeople would hardly be evidence of that. ;-)

          Unless the documentation was for a Slavic rather than a Hungarian origin?

          Sofya


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Hastings Sanderson
          ... The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit, its
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 9, 2010
            On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            > I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if
            > itis decended from a Greek lily.
            >
            >
            The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in
            a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit,
            its the bird fragment. The border is composed of the motif.
            http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/museums/shm/shmpazyryk.html Part of
            what I found so fascinating is that the border from this carpet or
            wallhanging is almost identical to those found later in other medium e.g.
            illumination, metalwork etc.


            -Praksedys


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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