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Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?

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  • Hastings Sanderson
    ... Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere the
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
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      On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

      > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
      >
      > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
      >
      > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
      > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
      > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
      >
      > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
      > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
      >
      > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
      >
      >
      > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
      > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
      > ����������%20�����������/����/
      >
      > At your service,
      >
      > Sofya
      >
      >
      > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
      > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      > ___
      > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
      > {o,o}
      > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      > (__(|
      > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
      > -^-^-`
      >
      > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
      http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
      the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
      description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
      lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
      entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
      within a heart?

      I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
      felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
      my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
      indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
      digging on I suppose.

      Thank you so much,

      Praksedys


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisa Kies
      ... Thank you for sharing that interesting article! ... Yes, that is how I have seen the term used. ... Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
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        On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Hastings Sanderson <hodgepatch@...>wrote:

        > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
        > >
        > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif],
        > inscribed
        > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
        > >
        > >
        > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
        > >
        > >
        > Thank you Mistress Sofya.


        Thank you for sharing that interesting article!


        > Am I understanding correctly that the
        > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
        > within a heart?
        >
        Yes, that is how I have seen the term used.

        >
        > ... if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
        > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis?


        Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a fleur-de-lis. Putting it
        within a heart or arch would help differentiate it from the vast horde of
        other fleur-de-lis registered in the SCA and make it look more Russian, but
        could be a challenge to blazon in proper heraldic terminology.


        > Some fun questions to do a bit of digging on I suppose.
        >
        > Enjoy!

        Sofya


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jpkowal@mymts.net
        Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
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          Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a fluer des lis? The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary. He pulled out a photocopied binder with documentation, He showed me pictographs of the design that were a symbol of a deity. In fact the four panels with the symbols were an attempt to create a bit of a charmed hat for good fortune. So I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
          Regards,
          AVL

          > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > From: hodgepatch@...
          > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:05:36 -0600
          > Subject: Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?
          >
          > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
          > >
          > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
          > > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
          > > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
          > >
          > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
          > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
          > >
          > > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
          > >
          > >
          > > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
          > > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%c3%8b%c3%92%c3%89%c3%8e/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
          > > òÏÓÓÉÊÓËÁÑ%20ÁÒÈÉÔÅËÔÕÒÁ/ëÒÉÎ/
          > >
          > > At your service,
          > >
          > > Sofya
          > >
          > >
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
          > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          > > ___
          > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
          > > {o,o}
          > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          > > (__(|
          > > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
          > > -^-^-`
          > >
          > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
          > http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
          > the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
          > description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
          > lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
          > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
          > within a heart?
          >
          > I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
          > felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
          > my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
          > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
          > digging on I suppose.
          >
          > Thank you so much,
          >
          > Praksedys
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisa Kies
          Greetings from Sofya ... I d be surprised if the motif wasn t even older than that, especially if it is decended from a Greek lily. ... Well, that may be true
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
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            Greetings from Sofya

            On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:07 AM, <jpkowal@...> wrote:

            >
            > Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War
            > outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to
            > 400-800ad with a fluer des lis?


            I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if it
            is decended from a Greek lily.


            > The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary... So
            > I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs
            > were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
            >
            Well, that may be true but since Hungarians are not Slavs, the work of
            Hungarian craftpeople would hardly be evidence of that. ;-)

            Unless the documentation was for a Slavic rather than a Hungarian origin?

            Sofya


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Hastings Sanderson
            ... The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit, its
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 9, 2010
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              On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if
              > itis decended from a Greek lily.
              >
              >
              The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in
              a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit,
              its the bird fragment. The border is composed of the motif.
              http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/museums/shm/shmpazyryk.html Part of
              what I found so fascinating is that the border from this carpet or
              wallhanging is almost identical to those found later in other medium e.g.
              illumination, metalwork etc.


              -Praksedys


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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