Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?

Expand Messages
  • Lisa Kies
    Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys! ... Yep, it s one of my favorite motifs. ... Yes. :-) ... Absolutely not! How could you possibly confuse a mutant flower
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 4, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!

      On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:

      > Sort of a weird question I suppose, but it seems I find the heart with
      > the sort of lily looking center in all kinds of Russian art. I've seen it in
      > belt fittings, sculpture, illumination, embroidery, even fragments of
      > Pazyryk felts.
      >
      Yep, it's one of my favorite motifs.


      > It reminds me of the seeblatt in German heraldry, but the interior is
      > more like a fleur-de-lis with curving points then the rounded spade. Anyone
      > know what its called?
      >
      Yes. :-)

      > Is it just a seeblatt drawn differently?
      >
      Absolutely not! How could you possibly confuse a mutant flower with a
      mutant leaf? ;-)

      Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
      course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
      Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura

      Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
      into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
      http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg


      And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
      http://slovari.yandex.ru/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%20%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/

      At your service,

      Sofya

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      ___
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      {o,o}
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      (__(|
      "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
      -^-^-`
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Hastings Sanderson
      ... Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere the
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

        > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
        >
        > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
        >
        > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
        > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
        > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
        >
        > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
        > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
        >
        > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
        >
        >
        > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
        > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
        > ����������%20�����������/����/
        >
        > At your service,
        >
        > Sofya
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        > ___
        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
        > {o,o}
        > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        > (__(|
        > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        > -^-^-`
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
        http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
        the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
        description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
        lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
        entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
        within a heart?

        I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
        felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
        my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
        indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
        digging on I suppose.

        Thank you so much,

        Praksedys


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lisa Kies
        ... Thank you for sharing that interesting article! ... Yes, that is how I have seen the term used. ... Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Hastings Sanderson <hodgepatch@...>wrote:

          > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
          > >
          > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif],
          > inscribed
          > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
          > >
          > >
          > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
          > >
          > >
          > Thank you Mistress Sofya.


          Thank you for sharing that interesting article!


          > Am I understanding correctly that the
          > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
          > within a heart?
          >
          Yes, that is how I have seen the term used.

          >
          > ... if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
          > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis?


          Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a fleur-de-lis. Putting it
          within a heart or arch would help differentiate it from the vast horde of
          other fleur-de-lis registered in the SCA and make it look more Russian, but
          could be a challenge to blazon in proper heraldic terminology.


          > Some fun questions to do a bit of digging on I suppose.
          >
          > Enjoy!

          Sofya


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jpkowal@mymts.net
          Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a fluer des lis? The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary. He pulled out a photocopied binder with documentation, He showed me pictographs of the design that were a symbol of a deity. In fact the four panels with the symbols were an attempt to create a bit of a charmed hat for good fortune. So I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
            Regards,
            AVL

            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            > From: hodgepatch@...
            > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:05:36 -0600
            > Subject: Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?
            >
            > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
            > >
            > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
            > > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
            > > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
            > >
            > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
            > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
            > >
            > > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
            > >
            > >
            > > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
            > > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%c3%8b%c3%92%c3%89%c3%8e/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
            > > òÏÓÓÉÊÓËÁÑ%20ÁÒÈÉÔÅËÔÕÒÁ/ëÒÉÎ/
            > >
            > > At your service,
            > >
            > > Sofya
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
            > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            > > ___
            > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
            > > {o,o}
            > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            > > (__(|
            > > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
            > > -^-^-`
            > >
            > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
            > http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
            > the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
            > description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
            > lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
            > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
            > within a heart?
            >
            > I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
            > felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
            > my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
            > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
            > digging on I suppose.
            >
            > Thank you so much,
            >
            > Praksedys
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lisa Kies
            Greetings from Sofya ... I d be surprised if the motif wasn t even older than that, especially if it is decended from a Greek lily. ... Well, that may be true
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              Greetings from Sofya

              On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:07 AM, <jpkowal@...> wrote:

              >
              > Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War
              > outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to
              > 400-800ad with a fluer des lis?


              I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if it
              is decended from a Greek lily.


              > The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary... So
              > I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs
              > were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
              >
              Well, that may be true but since Hungarians are not Slavs, the work of
              Hungarian craftpeople would hardly be evidence of that. ;-)

              Unless the documentation was for a Slavic rather than a Hungarian origin?

              Sofya


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hastings Sanderson
              ... The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit, its
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 9, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                >
                >
                > I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if
                > itis decended from a Greek lily.
                >
                >
                The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in
                a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit,
                its the bird fragment. The border is composed of the motif.
                http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/museums/shm/shmpazyryk.html Part of
                what I found so fascinating is that the border from this carpet or
                wallhanging is almost identical to those found later in other medium e.g.
                illumination, metalwork etc.


                -Praksedys


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.