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Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?

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  • Hastings
    Sort of a weird question I suppose, but it seems I find the heart with the sort of lily looking center in all kinds of Russian art. I ve seen it in belt
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 30, 2010
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      Sort of a weird question I suppose, but it seems I find the heart with the sort of lily looking center in all kinds of Russian art. I've seen it in belt fittings, sculpture, illumination, embroidery, even fragments of Pazyryk felts. It reminds me of the seeblatt in German heraldry, but the interior is more like a fleur-de-lis with curving points then the rounded spade. Anyone know what its called? Is it just a seeblatt drawn differently?

      -Praksedys
    • Lisa Kies
      Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys! ... Yep, it s one of my favorite motifs. ... Yes. :-) ... Absolutely not! How could you possibly confuse a mutant flower
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 4, 2010
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        Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!

        On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:

        > Sort of a weird question I suppose, but it seems I find the heart with
        > the sort of lily looking center in all kinds of Russian art. I've seen it in
        > belt fittings, sculpture, illumination, embroidery, even fragments of
        > Pazyryk felts.
        >
        Yep, it's one of my favorite motifs.


        > It reminds me of the seeblatt in German heraldry, but the interior is
        > more like a fleur-de-lis with curving points then the rounded spade. Anyone
        > know what its called?
        >
        Yes. :-)

        > Is it just a seeblatt drawn differently?
        >
        Absolutely not! How could you possibly confuse a mutant flower with a
        mutant leaf? ;-)

        Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
        course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
        Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura

        Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
        into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
        http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg


        And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
        http://slovari.yandex.ru/����/����������%20�����������/����/

        At your service,

        Sofya

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        ___
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        {o,o}
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        (__(|
        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        -^-^-`
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hastings Sanderson
        ... Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere the
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
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          On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

          > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
          >
          > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
          >
          > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
          > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
          > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
          >
          > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
          > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
          >
          > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
          >
          >
          > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
          > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd%ef%bf%bd/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
          > ����������%20�����������/����/
          >
          > At your service,
          >
          > Sofya
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
          > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          > ___
          > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
          > {o,o}
          > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          > (__(|
          > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
          > -^-^-`
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
          http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
          the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
          description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
          lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
          entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
          within a heart?

          I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
          felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
          my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
          indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
          digging on I suppose.

          Thank you so much,

          Praksedys


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisa Kies
          ... Thank you for sharing that interesting article! ... Yes, that is how I have seen the term used. ... Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
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            On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Hastings Sanderson <hodgepatch@...>wrote:

            > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
            > >
            > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif],
            > inscribed
            > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
            > >
            > >
            > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
            > >
            > >
            > Thank you Mistress Sofya.


            Thank you for sharing that interesting article!


            > Am I understanding correctly that the
            > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
            > within a heart?
            >
            Yes, that is how I have seen the term used.

            >
            > ... if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
            > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis?


            Yes, the krin would be indistinguishable from a fleur-de-lis. Putting it
            within a heart or arch would help differentiate it from the vast horde of
            other fleur-de-lis registered in the SCA and make it look more Russian, but
            could be a challenge to blazon in proper heraldic terminology.


            > Some fun questions to do a bit of digging on I suppose.
            >
            > Enjoy!

            Sofya


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jpkowal@mymts.net
            Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
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              Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to 400-800ad with a fluer des lis? The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary. He pulled out a photocopied binder with documentation, He showed me pictographs of the design that were a symbol of a deity. In fact the four panels with the symbols were an attempt to create a bit of a charmed hat for good fortune. So I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
              Regards,
              AVL

              > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              > From: hodgepatch@...
              > Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 09:05:36 -0600
              > Subject: Re: [sig] Is there a name for the Rus heart motif similar to the seeblatt?
              >
              > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Greetings from Sofya to Praksedys!
              > >
              > > On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Hastings <hodgepatch@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Anyway, enough joking around. Here's the description (translated, of
              > > course) of an ornamented 11th century cuff from page 101 of Kolchin's
              > > Drevnyaya Rus: Byt' i Kul'tura
              > >
              > > Ornament consists of a strip of krin [a fleur-de-lis type motif], inscribed
              > > into heart-shaped figures... (table 67, 3).
              > >
              > > http://club-kaup.narod.ru/rec/archussr_drrus_bk/archussr_drrus_bk_table67_2.jpg
              > >
              > >
              > > And this is the relevant entry from a dictionary of Russian architecture
              > > http://slovari.yandex.ru/%c3%8b%c3%92%c3%89%c3%8e/<http://slovari.yandex.ru/%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD/>
              > > òÏÓÓÉÊÓËÁÑ%20ÁÒÈÉÔÅËÔÕÒÁ/ëÒÉÎ/
              > >
              > > At your service,
              > >
              > > Sofya
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
              > > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              > > ___
              > > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
              > > {o,o}
              > > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              > > (__(|
              > > "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
              > > -^-^-`
              > >
              > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > Thank you Mistress Sofya. Your references led me to this article
              > http://www.metmuseum.org/publications/journals/1/pdf/1512991.pdf.bannered.pdfwhere
              > the krin motif on some 11th century kolts is discussed a bit. The
              > description puts the decorative motif it as a descendant of the Greek wild
              > lily and related to the fleur d lis. Am I understanding correctly that the
              > entire motif does not have a particular name, but is simply a lily drawn
              > within a heart?
              >
              > I'm interested in the motif for a variety of reasons, with using it in a
              > felting/embroidery project uppermost, but using it in heraldry had crossed
              > my mind. However, if it is "simply" a lily, would it be heraldically
              > indistinguishable from a a fleur d lis? Some fun questions to do a bit of
              > digging on I suppose.
              >
              > Thank you so much,
              >
              > Praksedys
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lisa Kies
              Greetings from Sofya ... I d be surprised if the motif wasn t even older than that, especially if it is decended from a Greek lily. ... Well, that may be true
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
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                Greetings from Sofya

                On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 3:07 AM, <jpkowal@...> wrote:

                >
                > Interesting I picked up a felted hat from a Drachewald Merchant at a War
                > outside of Phoenix. I asked why a felted hat that probably dates to
                > 400-800ad with a fluer des lis?


                I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if it
                is decended from a Greek lily.


                > The hat was felted by handy craft [peope in small villages of Hingary... So
                > I would surmise that this perhaps shows a link back to a time when the slavs
                > were a much larger tribe, which evolved into may slavic peoples.
                >
                Well, that may be true but since Hungarians are not Slavs, the work of
                Hungarian craftpeople would hardly be evidence of that. ;-)

                Unless the documentation was for a Slavic rather than a Hungarian origin?

                Sofya


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Hastings Sanderson
                ... The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit, its
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 9, 2010
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                  On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > I'd be surprised if the motif wasn't even older than that, especially if
                  > itis decended from a Greek lily.
                  >
                  >
                  The motif is definitely older then 400-800 AD. Here is an example of it in
                  a Pazyryk felt from Pazyryk barrow no. 5, 252-238 BCE. Scroll down a bit,
                  its the bird fragment. The border is composed of the motif.
                  http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/museums/shm/shmpazyryk.html Part of
                  what I found so fascinating is that the border from this carpet or
                  wallhanging is almost identical to those found later in other medium e.g.
                  illumination, metalwork etc.


                  -Praksedys


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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