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Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia

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  • Quokkaqueen
    I m not so sure knitting would be late SCA period per se. It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or thereabouts in Egypt, eg.
    Message 1 of 8 , May 5, 2010
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      I'm not so sure knitting would be 'late' SCA period per se.

      It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or thereabouts in Egypt, eg. http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html and
      The piece of knitting that is usually described as being the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
      http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf

      (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
      Jüri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)

      The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
      Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1), 60-9
      There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page: http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
      The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
      http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg

      No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)

      ~Asfridhr

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think it depends on the techniques.
      >
      > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal for 18th-20th
      > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our time (though there is
      > debate).
    • Sfandra
      Asfridr, Are the pieces you re referencing actually knitting as we know it, or naalbinding? --Sfandra --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like
      Message 2 of 8 , May 6, 2010
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        Asfridr,

        Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or naalbinding?

        --Sfandra
        --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....

        ******************
        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
        KOE, OM, Haus VDK, East Kingdom
        http://sfandra.webs.com
        ******************
        Never 'pearl' your butt.
        "Ja mogu sdelat' to."
        ******************


        --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

        > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
        > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
        > I'm not so sure knitting would be
        > 'late' SCA period per se.
        >
        > It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or
        > thereabouts in Egypt, eg. http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html and
        >
        > The piece of knitting that is usually described as being
        > the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from
        > Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell
        > the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
        > http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf
        >
        > (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian
        > mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it
        > doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
        > Jüri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum
        > der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia
        > archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)
        >
        > The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main
        > article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
        > Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas
        > cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1),
        > 60-9
        > There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page: http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
        >
        > The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
        > http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg
        >
        > No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening
        > before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest
        > finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it
        > would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late
        > period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)
        >
        > ~Asfridhr
        >
        > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com,
        > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I think it depends on the techniques.
        > >
        > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
        > for 18th-20th
        > > Centuries.  Crochet comes in sometime after our
        > time (though there is
        > > debate).
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >     sig-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
      • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
        The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally consider anything past 1250 late period . So, yes, I understand its middle of the
        Message 3 of 8 , May 6, 2010
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          The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally
          consider anything past 1250 "late period". So, yes, I understand its middle
          of the road so to speak but in mine brain, once the horde's hit..things
          changed.

          Ianuk
          Who is happy in 1145

          On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > Asfridr,
          >
          > Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or
          > naalbinding?
          >
          > --Sfandra
          > --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....
          >
          > ******************
          > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
          > KOE, OM, Haus VDK, East Kingdom
          > http://sfandra.webs.com
          > ******************
          > Never 'pearl' your butt.
          > "Ja mogu sdelat' to."
          > ******************
          >
          > --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...<quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@... <quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com>>
          > > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
          > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
          >
          > > I'm not so sure knitting would be
          > > 'late' SCA period per se.
          > >
          > > It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or
          > > thereabouts in Egypt, eg.
          > http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eurtatim/EgyptKnit1.html>and
          > >
          > > The piece of knitting that is usually described as being
          > > the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from
          > > Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell
          > > the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
          > > http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf
          > >
          > > (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian
          > > mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it
          > > doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
          > > J�ri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum
          > > der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia
          > > archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)
          > >
          > > The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main
          > > article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
          > > Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas
          > > cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1),
          > > 60-9
          > > There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page:
          > http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
          > >
          > > The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
          > > http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg
          > >
          > > No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening
          > > before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest
          > > finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it
          > > would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late
          > > period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)
          > >
          > > ~Asfridhr
          > >
          > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I think it depends on the techniques.
          > > >
          > > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
          > > for 18th-20th
          > > > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our
          > > time (though there is
          > > > debate).
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > > sig-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<sig-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisa Kies
          I m happy that you re happy in 1145. Thanks for explaining yourself, because it s very confusing when you use your personal definition of late period in a
          Message 4 of 8 , May 6, 2010
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            I'm happy that you're happy in 1145. Thanks for explaining yourself,
            because it's very confusing when you use your personal definition of "late
            period" in a context where your audience has a very different definition.

            I prefer the phrase "after my time/period" in such situations.

            :-)

            Back on topic, I have had difficulty finding proof of knitting _in Russia_
            during SCA period, which is why I claim that I learned to knit from my 14th
            century German in-laws.

            Sofya

            On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Jennifer Nelson Kemp
            <lady.ianuk@...>wrote:

            > The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally
            > consider anything past 1250 "late period". So, yes, I understand its
            > middle
            > of the road so to speak but in mine brain, once the horde's hit..things
            > changed.
            >
            > Ianuk
            > Who is happy in 1145
            >
            > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > Asfridr,
            > >
            > > Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or
            > > naalbinding?
            > >
            > > --Sfandra
            > > --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....
            > >
            > >
            > > --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...<quokkaqueen%
            > 40hotmail.com>>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > > > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@... <quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com
            > >>
            > > > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
            > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
            > >
            > > > I'm not so sure knitting would be
            > > > 'late' SCA period per se.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ~Asfridhr
            > > >
            > > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I think it depends on the techniques.
            > > > >
            > > > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
            > > > for 18th-20th
            > > > > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our
            > > > time (though there is
            > > > > debate).
            > > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            ___
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            {o,o}
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            (__(|
            "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
            -^-^-`
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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