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RE: [sig] A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia

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  • christopher chastain
    Wouldnt the skills and techniques be the same? Fashion patterns have changed but I would asume the methods should still be the same. Yours in Humble Service,
    Message 1 of 8 , May 5 9:20 AM
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      Wouldnt the skills and techniques be the same? Fashion patterns have changed but I would asume the methods should still be the same.





      Yours in Humble Service,
      Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
      Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a mullet of eight points argent



      "The only thing neccesary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
      Edmund Burke








      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      From: Patoodle@...
      Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:11:44 -0400
      Subject: Re: [sig] A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia






      Interesting! But the 19th century doesn't seem that "old" after being in the SCA for a while.... *grin*

      Still, the exhibit photos look fabulous, and I'll bet the 19th-century stuff has its roots in even older stuff....

      Thanks,
      Patricia

      -----Original Message-----
      From: ebradsimmons <ebrads@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 12:04 pm
      Subject: [sig] A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia

      Now showing at the Museum of Russian Art in Minneapolis:
      http://www.tmora.org/current.html
      A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
      ower gallery
      his original exhibition presents over one hundred artifacts revealing the rich
      easant culture of northern and central Russia in the 19th and early 20th
      enturies. Featured are towels, bed skirts, area rugs, and pillow covers, along
      ith spinning tools, garments, and costumes produced by peasant spinners,
      eavers and dressmakers. Designs and patterns were specific to regional centers
      f production, such as the Vologda, Riazan and Nizhnii Novgorod regions
      epresented in this exhibition.
      In 19th century Russia, traditional textiles were made at home. From planting
      he flax from which thread was spun to sewing a dress, women produced most
      verything needed by a peasant household. Long Russian autumns and winters were
      pent spinning, knitting, weaving, sewing, and embroidering. An elaborate
      isplay demonstrates the use of textiles in a peasant household at the turn of
      he last century.
      Soviet modernization largely destroyed traditional Russian culture in the 20th
      entury, but the remarkable objects on display in A Homespun Life: Textiles of
      ld Russia bring to life a peasant lifestyle long gone.
      All items on loan from the collection of Ms. Susan Johnson.

      ------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links
      Individual Email | Traditional
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
      I think it depends on the techniques. Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal for 18th-20th Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our time
      Message 2 of 8 , May 5 9:39 AM
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        I think it depends on the techniques.

        Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal for 18th-20th
        Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our time (though there is
        debate).

        Embroidery (overall, very generally, not Russian specific) probably hasn't
        changed much in techniques except maybe the use of tambour in later period
        and beyond. The backing cloth and what materials are used probably have
        adapted to what was available or imported. Though with the Soviets, I'm not
        sure how much trade in finer materials occurred and that would be
        interesting to see. Motifs have morphed or have been adapted from other
        cultures. Again, these are general statements..but it would be an exhibit
        to look at for looking at the transitions of crafts through the passage of
        time.

        Ianuk



        On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:20 AM, christopher chastain <ckchastain@...
        > wrote:

        >
        >
        >
        > Wouldnt the skills and techniques be the same? Fashion patterns have
        > changed but I would asume the methods should still be the same.
        >
        > Yours in Humble Service,
        > Pomestnik Dmitrii Ivanov
        > Per saltire sable and azure, a two headed eagle displayed and in chief a
        > mullet of eight points argent
        >
        > "The only thing neccesary for evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
        > Edmund Burke
        >
        >
        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
        > From: Patoodle@... <Patoodle%40aol.com>
        > Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:11:44 -0400
        > Subject: Re: [sig] A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
        >
        > Interesting! But the 19th century doesn't seem that "old" after being in
        > the SCA for a while.... *grin*
        >
        > Still, the exhibit photos look fabulous, and I'll bet the 19th-century
        > stuff has its roots in even older stuff....
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Patricia
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: ebradsimmons <ebrads@... <ebrads%40hotmail.com>>
        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wed, May 5, 2010 12:04 pm
        > Subject: [sig] A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
        >
        > Now showing at the Museum of Russian Art in Minneapolis:
        > http://www.tmora.org/current.html
        > A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
        > ower gallery
        > his original exhibition presents over one hundred artifacts revealing the
        > rich
        > easant culture of northern and central Russia in the 19th and early 20th
        > enturies. Featured are towels, bed skirts, area rugs, and pillow covers,
        > along
        > ith spinning tools, garments, and costumes produced by peasant spinners,
        > eavers and dressmakers. Designs and patterns were specific to regional
        > centers
        > f production, such as the Vologda, Riazan and Nizhnii Novgorod regions
        > epresented in this exhibition.
        > In 19th century Russia, traditional textiles were made at home. From
        > planting
        > he flax from which thread was spun to sewing a dress, women produced most
        > verything needed by a peasant household. Long Russian autumns and winters
        > were
        > pent spinning, knitting, weaving, sewing, and embroidering. An elaborate
        > isplay demonstrates the use of textiles in a peasant household at the turn
        > of
        > he last century.
        > Soviet modernization largely destroyed traditional Russian culture in the
        > 20th
        > entury, but the remarkable objects on display in A Homespun Life: Textiles
        > of
        > ld Russia bring to life a peasant lifestyle long gone.
        > All items on loan from the collection of Ms. Susan Johnson.
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > Individual Email | Traditional
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________________
        > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your
        > inbox.
        >
        > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Quokkaqueen
        I m not so sure knitting would be late SCA period per se. It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or thereabouts in Egypt, eg.
        Message 3 of 8 , May 5 6:32 PM
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          I'm not so sure knitting would be 'late' SCA period per se.

          It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or thereabouts in Egypt, eg. http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html and
          The piece of knitting that is usually described as being the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
          http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf

          (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
          Jüri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)

          The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
          Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1), 60-9
          There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page: http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
          The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
          http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg

          No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)

          ~Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think it depends on the techniques.
          >
          > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal for 18th-20th
          > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our time (though there is
          > debate).
        • Sfandra
          Asfridr, Are the pieces you re referencing actually knitting as we know it, or naalbinding? --Sfandra --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like
          Message 4 of 8 , May 6 11:35 AM
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            Asfridr,

            Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or naalbinding?

            --Sfandra
            --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....

            ******************
            Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
            KOE, OM, Haus VDK, East Kingdom
            http://sfandra.webs.com
            ******************
            Never 'pearl' your butt.
            "Ja mogu sdelat' to."
            ******************


            --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

            > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...>
            > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
            > I'm not so sure knitting would be
            > 'late' SCA period per se.
            >
            > It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or
            > thereabouts in Egypt, eg. http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html and
            >
            > The piece of knitting that is usually described as being
            > the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from
            > Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell
            > the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
            > http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf
            >
            > (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian
            > mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it
            > doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
            > Jüri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum
            > der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia
            > archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)
            >
            > The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main
            > article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
            > Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas
            > cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1),
            > 60-9
            > There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page: http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
            >
            > The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
            > http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg
            >
            > No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening
            > before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest
            > finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it
            > would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late
            > period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)
            >
            > ~Asfridhr
            >
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com,
            > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I think it depends on the techniques.
            > >
            > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
            > for 18th-20th
            > > Centuries.  Crochet comes in sometime after our
            > time (though there is
            > > debate).
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >     sig-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
          • Jennifer Nelson Kemp
            The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally consider anything past 1250 late period . So, yes, I understand its middle of the
            Message 5 of 8 , May 6 12:35 PM
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              The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally
              consider anything past 1250 "late period". So, yes, I understand its middle
              of the road so to speak but in mine brain, once the horde's hit..things
              changed.

              Ianuk
              Who is happy in 1145

              On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Asfridr,
              >
              > Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or
              > naalbinding?
              >
              > --Sfandra
              > --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....
              >
              > ******************
              > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
              > KOE, OM, Haus VDK, East Kingdom
              > http://sfandra.webs.com
              > ******************
              > Never 'pearl' your butt.
              > "Ja mogu sdelat' to."
              > ******************
              >
              > --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...<quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com>>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@... <quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com>>
              > > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
              > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
              >
              > > I'm not so sure knitting would be
              > > 'late' SCA period per se.
              > >
              > > It starts to show up from the 11-13th centuries or
              > > thereabouts in Egypt, eg.
              > http://home.earthlink.net/~urtatim/EgyptKnit1.html<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eurtatim/EgyptKnit1.html>and
              > >
              > > The piece of knitting that is usually described as being
              > > the 'first' in Europe is the mid 13th century knitting from
              > > Las Hueglas monastary in Spain, but as best as I can tell
              > > the next-oldest is a 13-14th c. mitten from Estonia.
              > > http://hem.bredband.net/annlyf/13thC-knit-fragment.pdf
              > >
              > > (There was a scan of an article that had the Estonian
              > > mitten, as well as knitting from Riga, Latvia, but it
              > > doesn't seem to be online any more. It was:
              > > J�ri Peets. 1987. "Totenhandschuhe im Bestattungsbrauchtum
              > > der Esten und anderen Ostseefinnen" _Fennoscandia
              > > archaeologica_ IV:105-116.)
              > >
              > > The Riga mittens are 14-15th century and knitted. The main
              > > article about them is, unsurprisingly, in Latvian:
              > > Caune A., Zarina A., 1980. "Rigas 13.-15. gs. vilnas
              > > cimdi." _Latvijas PSR zinatnu akademijas vestis_ 39(1),
              > > 60-9
              > > There is a line drawing at the bottom of this page:
              > http://latviasfriend.blogspot.com/2007/06/can-you-buy-yarn-in-riga.html
              > >
              > > The 13th century glove in the title, was naalbinded:
              > > http://www.history-museum.lv/english/media/mosaic/atdari/gloves.jpg
              > >
              > > No, there doesn't seem to have been knitting happening
              > > before the 11th century or so, but some of the earliest
              > > finds of knitting in Europe come from Eastern Europe, and it
              > > would be silly to call the 13th and 14th centuries 'late
              > > period' when they are probably closer to the middle. :)
              > >
              > > ~Asfridhr
              > >
              > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I think it depends on the techniques.
              > > >
              > > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
              > > for 18th-20th
              > > > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our
              > > time (though there is
              > > > debate).
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > > sig-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<sig-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lisa Kies
              I m happy that you re happy in 1145. Thanks for explaining yourself, because it s very confusing when you use your personal definition of late period in a
              Message 6 of 8 , May 6 1:05 PM
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                I'm happy that you're happy in 1145. Thanks for explaining yourself,
                because it's very confusing when you use your personal definition of "late
                period" in a context where your audience has a very different definition.

                I prefer the phrase "after my time/period" in such situations.

                :-)

                Back on topic, I have had difficulty finding proof of knitting _in Russia_
                during SCA period, which is why I claim that I learned to knit from my 14th
                century German in-laws.

                Sofya

                On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Jennifer Nelson Kemp
                <lady.ianuk@...>wrote:

                > The first actual socks for true knitting were Egyptian. But I personally
                > consider anything past 1250 "late period". So, yes, I understand its
                > middle
                > of the road so to speak but in mine brain, once the horde's hit..things
                > changed.
                >
                > Ianuk
                > Who is happy in 1145
                >
                > On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Asfridr,
                > >
                > > Are the pieces you're referencing actually 'knitting' as we know it, or
                > > naalbinding?
                > >
                > > --Sfandra
                > > --who right now can only knit scarves, but would like to learn more....
                > >
                > >
                > > --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...<quokkaqueen%
                > 40hotmail.com>>
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > > > From: Quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@... <quokkaqueen%40hotmail.com
                > >>
                > > > Subject: [sig] Re: A Homespun Life: Textiles of Old Russia
                > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2010, 9:32 PM
                > >
                > > > I'm not so sure knitting would be
                > > > 'late' SCA period per se.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ~Asfridhr
                > > >
                > > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com <sig%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > > Jennifer Nelson Kemp <lady.ianuk@...> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I think it depends on the techniques.
                > > > >
                > > > > Knitting is late period for SCA time frame but normal
                > > > for 18th-20th
                > > > > Centuries. Crochet comes in sometime after our
                > > > time (though there is
                > > > > debate).
                > > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
                Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                ___
                http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                {o,o}
                "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                (__(|
                "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
                -^-^-`
                ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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