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Re: [sig] Pants for under zupans

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  • Sfandra
    ... For my husband, Lord Aleksei Brazhnikov, I make more fitted pants. Definitely more thorsberg trousers (though footless) than the SCA generic poofy
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 9 12:55 PM
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      > My question is what kind of pants can I make him that are
      > better than generic poofy pants? What do you use as a pants
      > pattern? What about the Thorsberg trousers? I see many
      > people just say we don't know what they wore, but what do
      > modern reenactors use for later period slavic pants?

      For my husband, Lord Aleksei Brazhnikov, I make more fitted pants. Definitely more thorsberg trousers (though footless) than the SCA generic "poofy" pants.

      > I am debating getting him Uggs or making leather
      > shoes/boots. I found Pics of extant Russian leather shoes.

      For shoes, I assume you've visited Michael's medival Novgorod leather site? If you have the disposable income, www.Armlann.com will adapt his Knee High boot to have a high point in the front like the boot dug up in Novgorod.

      > What other cultures used zupans? What other decades?

      Speaking from Kievan Rus, men wore a very similar garment in the early period (9thC to 13th C). Check out "zipun", "svita", "kaftan/caftan". See Sofya's notes on Men's Clothing, Layer 2.

      > What kinds of hats did they wear? I am working
      > on the type that is like a skullcap with pie pieces and a
      > fur brim. He also has a black wide brim hat to prevent
      > sunburns on his head.

      If you make that dome hat kind of tall, with a cloth turned up brim, that's another sort of hat one could wear. Also google "kolpak" if he's interested in a more polish look. "Shapka" is another term, but I think that might actually mean "felt" more than describing a shape/type of hat - Sofya, do you concur?

      Another type of hat is a pointed one w/ a fur brim. You can see both a tall dome & a pointed one in my HATS! gallery: http://sfandra.webs.com/apps/photos/ And another one here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sfandra/4304740539/ (Seonaid13 on Flickr is me)

      > I am trying to make him look more authentic, or at least
      > more acceptable. We aren't stuck on keeping it Russian, it
      > is just that here they call them Russian coats. Sigh...

      It's OK. I get "nice byzantine!" all the time when I'm wearing my full court garb (tho less since I added an opashen). Don't let the weirdo Westerners (ie, western european!) get you down. ;)

      > Thank you,
      > Lady Caterina Fortuna
      > PS I can not read in other languages, which limits the
      > books and such for research.

      FWIW, I don't read Russian either. But there's plenty to work with here and other places, so don't feel bad. :D

      --Sfandra


      ******************
      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
      KOE, OM, Haus VDK, East Kingdom
      http://sfandra.webs.com
      ******************
      Never 'pearl' your butt.
      "Ja mogu sdelat' to."
      ******************
    • Lisa Kies
      Greetings from Sofya! On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Sfandra wrote: For my husband, Lord Aleksei Brazhnikov, I make more fitted pants.
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 9 5:40 PM
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        Greetings from Sofya!

        On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

        For my husband, Lord Aleksei Brazhnikov, I make more fitted pants.
        > Definitely more thorsberg trousers (though footless) than the SCA generic
        > "poofy" pants.
        >

        I agree with the more fitted pants:
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/clothingart.html


        >
        >
        > > I am debating getting him Uggs or making leather
        > > shoes/boots. I found Pics of extant Russian leather shoes.
        >
        > For shoes, I assume you've visited Michael's medival Novgorod leather site?
        > If you have the disposable income, www.Armlann.com<http://www.armlann.com/>will adapt his Knee High boot to have a high point in the front like the
        > boot dug up in Novgorod.
        >

        Standard Western European medieval turn shoes/boots are a reasonable start.


        >
        > > What other cultures used zupans? What other decades?
        >
        > Speaking from Kievan Rus, men wore a very similar garment in the early
        > period (9thC to 13th C). Check out "zipun", "svita", "kaftan/caftan". See
        > Sofya's notes on Men's Clothing, Layer 2.
        >

        You can give yourself a serious headache if you worry a lot about the
        various terms to garments that we would tend to lump together as "caftans".
        Different sleeve lengths, different cuff styles, different fabrics,
        different collars, different cultures, different languages, etc. etc. etc.
        That's why I organized my clothing notes into "layers".


        >
        > > What kinds of hats did they wear? I am working
        > > on the type that is like a skullcap with pie pieces and a
        > > fur brim. He also has a black wide brim hat to prevent
        > > sunburns on his head.
        >
        > If you make that dome hat kind of tall, with a cloth turned up brim, that's
        > another sort of hat one could wear. Also google "kolpak" if he's interested
        > in a more polish look. "Shapka" is another term, but I think that might
        > actually mean "felt" more than describing a shape/type of hat - Sofya, do
        > you concur?
        >

        No, I don't see how "shapka" could mean felt. Shapka is the generic term
        for "hat" in Russian. I even checked in Dal's dictionary. I had a teacher
        named "Gospazha Velikoshapka" when I was learning Russian - Mrs. "Big-Hat",
        although "Big-Hair" would have been more accurate. ;-)

        Thanks to Mordak, you can get more hat (and caftan) inspiration here:
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/index.html

        > .
        >

        At your service,
        Sofya

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        ___
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        {o,o}
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        (__(|
        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        -^-^-`
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rickjs
        We have no clear picture of the tops of pants (they always have coats on) so its a guess, but usually the legs are shown as snug. However sometimes eastern or
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 10 11:41 AM
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          We have no clear picture of the tops of pants (they always have coats on) so its a guess, but usually the legs are shown as snug. However sometimes eastern or turkish fashion snuck in and they had poofy pants. I would say, typically snug but not 'fitted'/'tailored' in the western sense. Basically they would be eastern 'square' cut..
          In http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/patterns.htm
          I suggest some possible patterns from tilke of folk costume suitable for riding that seem to fit the bill.

          I love arguing with my Cossack friends... they insist on wearing sharavori poofy pants but evidence for them in the 16-17th C. is very thin. Many, maybe all, drawings of cossacks in the period show tight pants. However, I personally believe the poofy pants were around as a minority fashion choice.
          -Rick
          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Cat <lusciousgarb@...> wrote:
          >
          > Salutations!
          > My lord loves the center front zupans that I have been making him. He has decided to have a Russian persona due to them. I know they as a trend were mentioned in 1540-1560 Poland. I also realize that the borders have changed so frequently. My Polish gm may have been from Poland, Galicia, or what is now Russia. They were worn in many slavic countries from what I could tell from portraits.
          > My question is what kind of pants can I make him that are better than generic poofy pants? What do you use as a pants pattern? What about the Thorsberg trousers? I see many people just say we don't know what they wore, but what do modern reenactors use for later period slavic pants?
          >
          > I am debating getting him Uggs or making leather shoes/boots. I found Pics of extant Russian leather shoes. What other cultures used zupans? What other decades? I made him leg wraps and got him silver hooks from historic enterprises. What kinds of hats did they wear? I am working on the type that is like a skullcap with pie pieces and a fur brim. He also has a black wide brim hat to prevent sunburns on his head.
          >
          > I love Sofya's website. There are a few more sites that are a little helpful.
          >
          > I am trying to make him look more authentic, or at least more acceptable. We aren't stuck on keeping it Russian, it is just that here they call them Russian coats. Sigh...
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Lady Caterina Fortuna
          > PS I can not read in other languages, which limits the books and such for research.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Sfandra
          ... Sorry, my typo! I meant felt hat -- hat made of felt. But you re right. I probably got the sense that it was specific to felt hats because I so often
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 10 12:36 PM
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            > >? "Shapka" is another term, but I
            > think that might
            > > actually mean "felt" more than describing a shape/type
            > of hat - Sofya, do
            > > you concur?
            > >
            >
            > No, I don't see how "shapka" could mean felt.  Shapka
            > is the generic term for "hat" in Russian. 

            Sorry, my typo! I meant "felt hat" -- hat made of felt. But you're right.

            I probably got the sense that it was specific to felt hats because I so often see fur hats listed as something else -- 'ushanka' usually, though I have no idea about the etomology of that term.

            --Sfandra
          • Lisa Kies
            ... Ah, felt hat makes more sense for shapka than felt , although just because most hats these days are baseball caps, doesn t mean that hat means
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 10 1:41 PM
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              On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

              > > >? "Shapka" is another term, but I
              > > think that might
              > > > actually mean "felt" more than describing a shape/type
              > > of hat - Sofya, do
              > > > you concur?
              > > >
              > >
              > > No, I don't see how "shapka" could mean felt. Shapka
              > > is the generic term for "hat" in Russian.
              >
              > Sorry, my typo! I meant "felt hat" -- hat made of felt. But you're right.
              >
              > I probably got the sense that it was specific to felt hats because I so
              > often see fur hats listed as something else -- 'ushanka' usually, though I
              > have no idea about the etomology of that term.
              >
              > --Sfandra


              Ah, "felt hat" makes more sense for shapka than "felt", although just
              because most hats these days are baseball caps, doesn't mean that "hat"
              means "basefall cap".
              An "ushanka" is a hat with ear flaps - name derived from the word for ear,
              ukho.

              Russian is so logical. Sometimes. ;-)

              Sofya

              ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

              Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
              Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              ___
              http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
              {o,o}
              "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              (__(|
              "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
              -^-^-`
              ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anthony Bryant
              ... So what would I call my Bugs Bunny hat? ;) Effingsilly
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 10 5:24 PM
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                On Mar 10, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Lisa Kies wrote:

                >
                > An "ushanka" is a hat with ear flaps - name derived from the word
                > for ear,
                > ukho.
                >

                So what would I call my Bugs Bunny hat? ;)


                Effingsilly
              • Electric Wolf
                ... krolikushanka? :) David Volk Mc
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 11 2:40 AM
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                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant <ajbryant@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > On Mar 10, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Lisa Kies wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > An "ushanka" is a hat with ear flaps - name derived from the word
                  > > for ear,
                  > > ukho.
                  > >
                  >
                  > So what would I call my Bugs Bunny hat? ;)
                  >
                  >
                  > Effingsilly
                  >

                  krolikushanka? :)

                  David "Volk" Mc
                • Anthony Bryant
                  ... LOL! Effingham
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 11 12:33 PM
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                    On Mar 11, 2010, at 5:40 AM, Electric Wolf wrote:

                    >
                    > > So what would I call my Bugs Bunny hat? ;)
                    >
                    > krolikushanka? :)
                    >

                    LOL!


                    Effingham
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