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Re: [sig] Polish COA help

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  • T Duran
    ... With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn t conflict with any of them. Might I
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 14 12:06 AM
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      On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
      >
      > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison have
      > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
      > registering something bull-ish.
      > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

      With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
      tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
      them.

      Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
      with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
      conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
      too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
      easier.

      The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
      armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

      -Kazimira
    • David Borkowski
      What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want something
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 14 4:51 AM
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        What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
        find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
        something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
        Thanks again!




        -------Original Message-------

        From: T Duran
        Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help


        On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
        >
        > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
        have
        > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
        > registering something bull-ish.
        > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

        With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
        tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
        them.

        Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
        with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
        conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
        too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
        easier.

        The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
        armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

        -Kazimira




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lisa Kies
        A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 14 8:08 AM
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          A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
          around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
          challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

          Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
          sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
          greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

          At your service,

          Sofya
          On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:51 AM, David Borkowski <dmborkowski@...>wrote:

          > What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
          > find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
          > something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
          > Thanks again!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -------Original Message-------
          >
          > From: T Duran
          > Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
          > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help
          >
          >
          > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
          > have
          > > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
          > > registering something bull-ish.
          > > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON
          >
          > With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
          > tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
          > them.
          >
          > Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
          > with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
          > conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
          > too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
          > easier.
          >
          > The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
          > armory, too, either in singles or pairs.
          >
          > -Kazimira
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • T Duran
          ... There s an example of a demi-lion here: http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 14 12:57 PM
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            On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
            >
            > A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
            > around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
            > challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

            There's an example of a demi-lion here:

            http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html

            I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to be a
            good Polish motif:

            http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_bellenville.html

            I see also that only three of the SCA registered devices in the "Beast
            - Bull and Bison" category
            (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON)
            feature tertiary charges on the bulls themselves. I would *think*
            that if you made the bull a demi-bull, and charged it on the shoulder
            with, say, a star, that you might sail clear of all those other bulls
            with a nice, simple design.

            Something like, "Azure, a demi-bull salient Or charged on the shoulder
            with a mullet azure." (Or some other color-metal combination -- you
            mentioned blue, so...)

            Translation: On a blue field, the top half of a rearing gold
            half-bull, with a blue star on its shoulder. (The Pleiades, which
            ride on Taurus' back, are mostly blue stars, so there's another nod
            to the constellation.) Would need to run it past a good
            conflict-checker, though.

            Something else you might consider would be a bull's massacre (just the
            horns, like this:
            http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Sersheim.png). Only
            divide it in half and make it two colors. So "Azure, a bull's
            massacre per pale gules and Or."

            Translation: "On a blue field, a pair of bull's horns that's red on
            the left side and gold on the right." (Yes, you can get away with
            half being color on color.) Again, would need to have someone check it
            for conflict against already-registered devices.

            Other interesting things in that Polish roll include what looks like a
            bulls' scalp, like the massacre, but including the ears as well, and a
            bull's head with a sword stuck through the horns (search on "Pomian"
            -- this later gets depicted as a bull's head impaled by a sword:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomian_coat_of_arms).


            > Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
            > sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
            > greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

            Not really -- I was just skimming those rolls linked off the Medieval
            Heraldry Archive. :^)

            David, do you have a local herald helping you with your submissions ?
            If not, I can trying posting a conflict-check request on the SCAHRLDs
            list, if you find a design you particularly like. Have you had any
            luck picking a name ?

            Kazimira
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