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Re: [sig] Polish COA help

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  • Lisa Kies
    For registering devices, you don t have to worry about proving a particular design is appropriate for your persona. In fact, in the case of us Slavs, it seems
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 12, 2010
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      For registering devices, you don't have to worry about proving a particular
      design is appropriate for your persona. In fact, in the case of us Slavs,
      it seems best to submit a generic Western-compatible design and use artistic
      license after the fact to make it persona appropriate.

      According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison have
      been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
      registering something bull-ish.
      http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

      I like to go here to look for heraldic clip-art:
      http://www.heraldicclipart.com/

      Although this site is a little more official:
      http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html
      http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html#B
      http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Bulls_Head_cabossed.pdf
      http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Bull_passant.pdf
      etc.
      <http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html#B>

      At your service,

      Sofya

      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
      "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:06 AM, David <dmborkowski@...> wrote:

      > The persona I am working on is 14th/15th century Poland. I am trying to
      > locate "period" art work for my COA. During this period, devices had either
      > the red or blue background. I would like to go with a "Taurus" theme.
      > Something like a bull head or horns or the Taurus symbol. What do I need to
      > do to make this pass? Is there someplace in particular that I can look to
      > find "bull" art work for my device? I have been finding stuff, but it is all
      > too modern. Suggestions?
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • T Duran
      ... With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn t conflict with any of them. Might I
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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        On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
        >
        > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison have
        > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
        > registering something bull-ish.
        > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

        With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
        tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
        them.

        Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
        with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
        conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
        too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
        easier.

        The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
        armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

        -Kazimira
      • David Borkowski
        What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want something
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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          What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
          find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
          something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
          Thanks again!




          -------Original Message-------

          From: T Duran
          Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help


          On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
          >
          > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
          have
          > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
          > registering something bull-ish.
          > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

          With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
          tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
          them.

          Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
          with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
          conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
          too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
          easier.

          The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
          armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

          -Kazimira




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lisa Kies
          A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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            A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
            around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
            challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

            Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
            sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
            greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

            At your service,

            Sofya
            On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:51 AM, David Borkowski <dmborkowski@...>wrote:

            > What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
            > find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
            > something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
            > Thanks again!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -------Original Message-------
            >
            > From: T Duran
            > Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help
            >
            >
            > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
            > have
            > > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
            > > registering something bull-ish.
            > > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON
            >
            > With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
            > tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
            > them.
            >
            > Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
            > with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
            > conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
            > too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
            > easier.
            >
            > The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
            > armory, too, either in singles or pairs.
            >
            > -Kazimira
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • T Duran
            ... There s an example of a demi-lion here: http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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              On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
              >
              > A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
              > around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
              > challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

              There's an example of a demi-lion here:

              http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html

              I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to be a
              good Polish motif:

              http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_bellenville.html

              I see also that only three of the SCA registered devices in the "Beast
              - Bull and Bison" category
              (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON)
              feature tertiary charges on the bulls themselves. I would *think*
              that if you made the bull a demi-bull, and charged it on the shoulder
              with, say, a star, that you might sail clear of all those other bulls
              with a nice, simple design.

              Something like, "Azure, a demi-bull salient Or charged on the shoulder
              with a mullet azure." (Or some other color-metal combination -- you
              mentioned blue, so...)

              Translation: On a blue field, the top half of a rearing gold
              half-bull, with a blue star on its shoulder. (The Pleiades, which
              ride on Taurus' back, are mostly blue stars, so there's another nod
              to the constellation.) Would need to run it past a good
              conflict-checker, though.

              Something else you might consider would be a bull's massacre (just the
              horns, like this:
              http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Sersheim.png). Only
              divide it in half and make it two colors. So "Azure, a bull's
              massacre per pale gules and Or."

              Translation: "On a blue field, a pair of bull's horns that's red on
              the left side and gold on the right." (Yes, you can get away with
              half being color on color.) Again, would need to have someone check it
              for conflict against already-registered devices.

              Other interesting things in that Polish roll include what looks like a
              bulls' scalp, like the massacre, but including the ears as well, and a
              bull's head with a sword stuck through the horns (search on "Pomian"
              -- this later gets depicted as a bull's head impaled by a sword:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomian_coat_of_arms).


              > Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
              > sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
              > greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

              Not really -- I was just skimming those rolls linked off the Medieval
              Heraldry Archive. :^)

              David, do you have a local herald helping you with your submissions ?
              If not, I can trying posting a conflict-check request on the SCAHRLDs
              list, if you find a design you particularly like. Have you had any
              luck picking a name ?

              Kazimira
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