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Re: [sig] Polish COA help

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  • jjbober4@comcast.net
    I would suggest going with an aurochs as those where prevalent in Poland during the period, and used in Polish heraldry. Here s a nice place to look.
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 12, 2010
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      I would suggest going with an aurochs as those where prevalent in Poland during the period, and used in Polish heraldry.

      Here's a nice place to look.
      http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herby_szlachty_polskiej_%28galeria%29

      Jan
      BTW...unless you've received an AoA, at this point its just a "device", not a COA.
      :)
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "David" <dmborkowski@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 12:06:58 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
      Subject: [sig] Polish COA help






      The persona I am working on is 14th/15th century Poland. I am trying to locate "period" art work for my COA. During this period, devices had either the red or blue background. I would like to go with a "Taurus" theme. Something like a bull head or horns or the Taurus symbol. What do I need to do to make this pass? Is there someplace in particular that I can look to find "bull" art work for my device? I have been finding stuff, but it is all too modern. Suggestions?




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lisa Kies
      For registering devices, you don t have to worry about proving a particular design is appropriate for your persona. In fact, in the case of us Slavs, it seems
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 12, 2010
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        For registering devices, you don't have to worry about proving a particular
        design is appropriate for your persona. In fact, in the case of us Slavs,
        it seems best to submit a generic Western-compatible design and use artistic
        license after the fact to make it persona appropriate.

        According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison have
        been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
        registering something bull-ish.
        http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

        I like to go here to look for heraldic clip-art:
        http://www.heraldicclipart.com/

        Although this site is a little more official:
        http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html
        http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html#B
        http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Bulls_Head_cabossed.pdf
        http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/Bull_passant.pdf
        etc.
        <http://www.aeheralds.net/Links/AE_Traceable_Art/IndivPDFs/ToC.html#B>

        At your service,

        Sofya

        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Sofya la Rus, OL, CW, CSH, druzhinnitsa Kramolnikova
        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
        http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
        "Nasytivshimsya knizhnoj sladosti."
        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 11:06 AM, David <dmborkowski@...> wrote:

        > The persona I am working on is 14th/15th century Poland. I am trying to
        > locate "period" art work for my COA. During this period, devices had either
        > the red or blue background. I would like to go with a "Taurus" theme.
        > Something like a bull head or horns or the Taurus symbol. What do I need to
        > do to make this pass? Is there someplace in particular that I can look to
        > find "bull" art work for my device? I have been finding stuff, but it is all
        > too modern. Suggestions?
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • T Duran
        ... With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn t conflict with any of them. Might I
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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          On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
          >
          > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison have
          > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
          > registering something bull-ish.
          > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

          With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
          tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
          them.

          Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
          with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
          conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
          too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
          easier.

          The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
          armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

          -Kazimira
        • David Borkowski
          What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want something
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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            What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
            find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
            something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
            Thanks again!




            -------Original Message-------

            From: T Duran
            Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help


            On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
            >
            > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
            have
            > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
            > registering something bull-ish.
            > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON

            With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
            tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
            them.

            Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
            with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
            conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
            too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
            easier.

            The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
            armory, too, either in singles or pairs.

            -Kazimira




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lisa Kies
            A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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              A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
              around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
              challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

              Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
              sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
              greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

              At your service,

              Sofya
              On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:51 AM, David Borkowski <dmborkowski@...>wrote:

              > What is a demi-bull?? I agree about looking at horns, since all the bulls I
              > find seem to be already in use in one form or another. I definitely want
              > something different, but simple and I will be able to get it approved.
              > Thanks again!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -------Original Message-------
              >
              > From: T Duran
              > Date: 2/14/2010 3:06:28 AM
              > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [sig] Polish COA help
              >
              >
              > On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > According to the SCA on-line armorial, some 138 examples of bull/bison
              > have
              > > been registered, so you shouldn't have any particular difficulties
              > > registering something bull-ish.
              > > http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON
              >
              > With the caveat that with so many bulls slready registered, it may be
              > tricky to find a good, clean design that doesn't conflict with any of
              > them.
              >
              > Might I suggest a demi-bull ? It looks like there's only one device
              > with demi-bovines registered, and it ties in neatly with the
              > conventional depiction of the constellation of Taurus, without being
              > too obvious. It would make clearing those other bulls a little
              > easier.
              >
              > The Poles look like they do nice things with with just the horns in
              > armory, too, either in singles or pairs.
              >
              > -Kazimira
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • T Duran
              ... There s an example of a demi-lion here: http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to
              Message 6 of 7 , Feb 14, 2010
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                On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:08 AM, Lisa Kies <lkies319@...> wrote:
                >
                > A demi-bull is a half-bull - waist up. There are lots of ways of getting
                > around conflicts without making things too complicated, although it can be a
                > challenge. Just be glad you aren't contemplating a cross or an eagle. ;-)

                There's an example of a demi-lion here:

                http://www.jaydax.co.uk/genlinks/heraldry-animal.html

                I see a few demi-beasts in this Polish roll, so it appears to be a
                good Polish motif:

                http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_bellenville.html

                I see also that only three of the SCA registered devices in the "Beast
                - Bull and Bison" category
                (http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=BEAST%2dBULL%20AND%20BISON)
                feature tertiary charges on the bulls themselves. I would *think*
                that if you made the bull a demi-bull, and charged it on the shoulder
                with, say, a star, that you might sail clear of all those other bulls
                with a nice, simple design.

                Something like, "Azure, a demi-bull salient Or charged on the shoulder
                with a mullet azure." (Or some other color-metal combination -- you
                mentioned blue, so...)

                Translation: On a blue field, the top half of a rearing gold
                half-bull, with a blue star on its shoulder. (The Pleiades, which
                ride on Taurus' back, are mostly blue stars, so there's another nod
                to the constellation.) Would need to run it past a good
                conflict-checker, though.

                Something else you might consider would be a bull's massacre (just the
                horns, like this:
                http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Sersheim.png). Only
                divide it in half and make it two colors. So "Azure, a bull's
                massacre per pale gules and Or."

                Translation: "On a blue field, a pair of bull's horns that's red on
                the left side and gold on the right." (Yes, you can get away with
                half being color on color.) Again, would need to have someone check it
                for conflict against already-registered devices.

                Other interesting things in that Polish roll include what looks like a
                bulls' scalp, like the massacre, but including the ears as well, and a
                bull's head with a sword stuck through the horns (search on "Pomian"
                -- this later gets depicted as a bull's head impaled by a sword:
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomian_coat_of_arms).


                > Feel free to contact me off-list to discuss the herald-ese. Although it
                > sounds like Kazimira has heraldic tendencies, too, with the bonus of a
                > greater knowledge of Polish arms than I would have.

                Not really -- I was just skimming those rolls linked off the Medieval
                Heraldry Archive. :^)

                David, do you have a local herald helping you with your submissions ?
                If not, I can trying posting a conflict-check request on the SCAHRLDs
                list, if you find a design you particularly like. Have you had any
                luck picking a name ?

                Kazimira
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