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Re: panova?

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  • Jenn/Yana
    ... Female clothing. Early time period, most books suggest approx 900-1400. Lower class clothing, worn over a long shirt (or two). In my opinion it isn t
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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      >What is a Panova????
      >
      >I have not been keeping up on this conversation, and I am really lost. It
      >sounds like female garb. What time period was it worn in? What area of
      >Russia? Did noble ladies wear it? What other clothes were commonly worn with
      >it? If anyone can answer my questions, I would greatly appreciate it.

      Female clothing. Early time period, most books suggest approx 900-1400.
      Lower class clothing, worn over a long shirt (or two).

      In my opinion it isn't period at all, due to the fact that the only
      evidence we have of it is a single find of a very small fragment of checked
      cloth found near the hip/leg region of some female human remains. Some
      archaeologists have said it is a fragment of a panova/poneva, mostly
      because the fabric design resembles the fabric used in 19th century
      garments that were worn by Russian/Ukrainian peasants. I think it is very
      shaky evidence and sloppy archaeology. I do wear a panova occasionally,
      but when people ask (who actually are interested enough to listen to me
      rattle on), I am sure to tell them that it is only possibly period, not
      definitely period. Of course, I also have the problem/blessing that is
      Slavic garb, most people don't even know what Slavic garb is supposed to
      look like, much less know what time period it is. ;)

      --Yana
    • Christine Jacobs
      Guess who got a scanner for Christmas? :) Here s a picture of a panova or two, at least, I think they are panovas. I scanned this in from Arkheologia: Byt i
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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        Guess who got a scanner for Christmas? :) Here's a picture of a panova or
        two, at least, I think they are panovas. I scanned this in from
        Arkheologia: Byt i kul'tura. More pics, and Russian choir music, to come to
        a web site near you!

        http://www.geocities.com/~chrstnj/sca/panova.jpg

        Am I right? Are these panovas?

        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        Kseniia Smol'nyanina mka: Christine Jacobs
        of Mountain Freehold chrstnj@...
        <http://www.geocities.com/~chrstnj>
        --------------------------------------------------------------------
        "I shall never permit myself to stoop so low as to hate another man."
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      • BanAvtai@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 01/03/2000 9:02:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, chrstnj@geocities.com writes: I m horribly
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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          In a message dated 01/03/2000 9:02:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          chrstnj@... writes:

          << Guess who got a scanner for Christmas? >>

          I'm horribly jealous! ::Sniffle::

          Yana, if I see you at Pennsic my ear is yours for as long as you rattle on.
          :-D

          Iu'liana
        • Jenn/Yana
          ... Fun, aren t they? :) ... Yep, the two on the left are. I m not sure what the one on the right is, it looks like she may be wearing two shirts, one over
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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            >Guess who got a scanner for Christmas? :)

            Fun, aren't they? :)

            >http://www.geocities.com/~chrstnj/sca/panova.jpg
            >
            >Am I right? Are these panovas?

            Yep, the two on the left are. I'm not sure what the one on the right is,
            it looks like she may be wearing two shirts, one over the other. The
            outfit on the left is for "middle-aged women", the middle is for "youths"
            and the right one is for "girls". Note how the shirts only come down to
            the ankles or slightly higher. Predslava talks about this a bit in her
            article on women's clothing on her webpage. And who ever said that Russian
            clothing is too warm? Don't these outfits look like just the thing on a
            hot summer day?

            I have found it wise to be wary of the drawings in this book, however. The
            clothing pictures aren't drawn very accurately. Seams have a way of
            disappearing and such. Still, it is my current favorite book for Russian
            stuff. The jewelry and other drawings are excellent.

            --Yana
          • Diane S. Sawyer
            ... {snip} ... {snip} ... {snip} ... Oh, yes... linen rubakha, linen panova... very cool and comfy. Linen is THE summer fabric, as far as I m concerned. I
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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              --- Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...> wrote:
              > From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...>
              >
              {snip}

              > >
              > >Am I right? Are these panovas?
              >
              {snip}
              > And who
              > ever said that Russian
              > clothing is too warm? Don't these outfits look like
              > just the thing on a
              > hot summer day?
              >
              {snip}
              >
              > --Yana

              Oh, yes... linen rubakha, linen panova... very cool
              and comfy. Linen is THE summer fabric, as far as I'm
              concerned. I seem to remember reading that in early
              period it was acceptable to wear just a belted
              rubakha, but I simply can't bring myself to do so...
              it feels too much like running around in my underwear.

              Tasha
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            • MHoll@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:50:38 PM Central Standard Time, ... Remember that most of Russia has a continental climate: as hot as down here in south Texas
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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                In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:50:38 PM Central Standard Time,
                jdmiller2@... writes:

                > And who ever said that Russian
                > clothing is too warm? Don't these outfits look like just the thing on a
                > hot summer day?

                Remember that most of Russia has a continental climate: as hot as down here
                in south Texas (just not for as long), and as cold as Alaska in the winter
                (but not as long, either). You bet they'd have comfortable clothing!

                > I have found it wise to be wary of the drawings in this book, however. The
                > clothing pictures aren't drawn very accurately. <...>

                And I'm shocked that the "middle-aged woman" is showing some of her hair! How
                rude and improper! A married woman, shining her hair! ;-)

                Seriously, considering the heavy fines imposable on someone who pulls a
                married woman's headdress off and reveals her hair, it's unlikely, really,
                really unlikely, that a married woman would not wear a cap and/or veil (or
                something) to hide her hair *completely*. Apart from that...

                I do share Yana's skepticism about the panova, although I'd conceived the
                idea that it was a garment more common in early period, later fallen into
                disuse by the nobility, and finally relegated to country clothing. It may
                have been a ritual piece of clothing, but that's just a vague idea.

                Especially since the conjectural ritual is not described anywhere, except for
                a cryptic image on a silver bracelet.


                Predslava Vydrina
                Per fess embattled azure and gules, two otters passant or.
                <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html">Russ
                ian History Trivia Page</A>
                (http://members.aol.com/Predslava/RussianHistoryTriviaPage.html)
              • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 1/3/2000 10:20:09 PM Central Standard Time, ... And right you are! To describe the terrible destruction and dishonor inflicted on a city,
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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                  In a message dated 1/3/2000 10:20:09 PM Central Standard Time,
                  tasha_medved@... writes:

                  > I seem to remember reading that in early
                  > period it was acceptable to wear just a belted
                  > rubakha, but I simply can't bring myself to do so...
                  > it feels too much like running around in my underwear.

                  And right you are! To describe the terrible destruction and dishonor
                  inflicted on a city, the Chronicles note that the residents were stripped
                  "even to their shirts". So no, a woman would not be going around in her
                  undershirt. Men, working in fields on on some other hot, sweaty task, yes,
                  but a woman would not be walking around in her underwear.

                  The question arises, of course, of what exactly constituted underwear, and
                  what would do for upper? outer?wear in the summer. Were there undertunics
                  under the tunics, so one could strip to the tunic, and yet not the
                  undertunic? Were there lightweight jackets or something, or would linen over
                  linen (tunic and overtunic) be cool enough?

                  But in undershirts? Really! How shocking! :-)

                  Predslava.
                • Patricia Hefner
                  ... or ... to ... Oh, I love this picture! To heck with is it authentic on a Meridian day when it s 98 degrees in the shade and the heat index is 120. I m
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 3, 2000
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                    > Guess who got a scanner for Christmas? :) Here's a picture of a panova
                    or
                    > two, at least, I think they are panovas. I scanned this in from
                    > Arkheologia: Byt i kul'tura. More pics, and Russian choir music, to come
                    to
                    > a web site near you!
                    >
                    > http://www.geocities.com/~chrstnj/sca/panova.jpg
                    >

                    Oh, I love this picture! To heck with "is it authentic" on a Meridian day
                    when it's 98 degrees in the shade and the heat index is 120. I'm planning to
                    paint this even though I've read that they block-printed the things. I'd
                    hate to nuke my hand with a block-cutter. Putting up with sprained ankles
                    from dance is injury enough, thank you very much.

                    Dekuji!
                    Isabelle patricia.hefner@...
                  • Jenn/Yana
                    ... I ll share an easy and cheap way to print on fabric that I learned in a fibers and fabrics class that is just right for doing simple geometric designs on
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 4, 2000
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                      Isabelle wrote:

                      >I'm planning to
                      >paint this even though I've read that they block-printed the things. I'd
                      >hate to nuke my hand with a block-cutter.

                      I'll share an easy and cheap way to print on fabric that I learned in a
                      fibers and fabrics class that is just right for doing simple geometric
                      designs on fabric, paper and whatever else you feel like printing. Get a
                      block of 1/2" thick (or so) wood the size of your design. Take old, used
                      *bicycle inner tubes* (thin black rubber) and cut your design out of them.
                      Glue to the wood. You now have a durable printing block. You can use
                      scissors or an exacto blade to cut the rubber, no need for special tools.
                      Print using your favorite dyes/paints. I've only ever used t-shirt paint,
                      but my teacher said she had used other substances to varying degrees of
                      success. Test it on a sample piece of cloth first, wash and dry and see if
                      you like the way it holds up.

                      --Yana
                    • Diane S. Sawyer
                      ... Oh, excellent! Thanks for sharing! I use Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paint. It comes in a bazillion colors (I counted!), including gold and silver, and it
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 4, 2000
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                        --- Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...> wrote:
                        > From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2@...>
                        >
                        > Isabelle wrote:
                        >
                        > >I'm planning to
                        > >paint this even though I've read that they
                        > block-printed the things. I'd
                        > >hate to nuke my hand with a block-cutter.
                        >
                        > I'll share an easy and cheap way to print on fabric
                        > that I learned in a
                        > fibers and fabrics class that is just right for
                        > doing simple geometric
                        > designs on fabric, paper and whatever else you feel
                        > like printing. Get a
                        > block of 1/2" thick (or so) wood the size of your
                        > design. Take old, used
                        > *bicycle inner tubes* (thin black rubber) and cut
                        > your design out of them.
                        > Glue to the wood. You now have a durable printing
                        > block. You can use
                        > scissors or an exacto blade to cut the rubber, no
                        > need for special tools.
                        > Print using your favorite dyes/paints. I've only
                        > ever used t-shirt paint,
                        > but my teacher said she had used other substances to
                        > varying degrees of
                        > success. Test it on a sample piece of cloth first,
                        > wash and dry and see if
                        > you like the way it holds up.
                        >
                        > --Yana
                        >

                        Oh, excellent! Thanks for sharing!

                        I use Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paint. It comes in a
                        bazillion colors (I counted!), including gold and
                        silver, and it cleans up quickly. I would recommend
                        using a foam roller (look in the stenciling section of
                        the craft store) instead of dipping the stamp in the
                        paint; dipping makes it goopy. If you can't find a
                        roller, use a foam brush to load the stamp.

                        There are some foam stamps in the craft stores that
                        might work for your purposes, BTW, both open cell and
                        closed cell foam. The open cell foam takes a boatload
                        of paint to load it, just so you know.

                        Post pics when you get it done? Pretty please?

                        Tasha
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