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14th Century Mens Clothing

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  • Eric Bruning
    Hello everyone, I am working on improving my soft kit, and was wondering if there are any books or sources for mens clothing in the early 14th Century. The
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 12, 2009
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      Hello everyone,

      I am working on improving my soft kit, and was wondering if there are any books or sources for mens clothing in the early 14th Century. The area I am portraying (SCA) is the Nitra Region (modern day Slovakia), which would have been part of North Western Hungary at that time. I'm also not the most skilled with needle and thread, but can do passable basic items. May be able to get help for some things.

      I've searched a bit on-line, but most of what I see is for later time periods. Is there much difference between the regions in the earlier 14th century?

      Thanks for any help,

      Rudolph
      Stonemarche, East (New Hampshire, USA)
    • John Staeck
      Hi.  Kepes Kronika is Hungarian and dates to about that time period, certainly the first half of the 14th century is a good ballpark.  It can be
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 12, 2009
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        Hi.  Kepes Kronika is Hungarian and dates to about that time period, certainly the first half of the 14th century is a good ballpark.  It can be inter-library loaned and has been reproduced at least once with full color plates.  In the short haul, a wikipedia search will get you a few of the miniatures on your screen so you can get an idea of what is present.

        Also, remember that Trencin, just north of Nitra, was a stronghold of Mate Csak, who was a rival of Charles Robert, the Angevin claimant to the throne.  You might have found more active responses against the mainstream styles of central Hungary in the region as a way to demonstrating defiance/difference to the increasing Italian/French influences in the central and southern regions.  Just theorizing on that, would need to do some careful research to see if that was the case.

        FWIW - best

        Voros Janos

        --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Eric Bruning <erich.bruning@...> wrote:

        From: Eric Bruning <erich.bruning@...>
        Subject: [sig] 14th Century Mens Clothing
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:31 PM






         





        Hello everyone,



        I am working on improving my soft kit, and was wondering if there are any books or sources for mens clothing in the early 14th Century. The area I am portraying (SCA) is the Nitra Region (modern day Slovakia), which would have been part of North Western Hungary at that time. I'm also not the most skilled with needle and thread, but can do passable basic items. May be able to get help for some things.



        I've searched a bit on-line, but most of what I see is for later time periods. Is there much difference between the regions in the earlier 14th century?



        Thanks for any help,



        Rudolph

        Stonemarche, East (New Hampshire, USA)































        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Elaine Manyoki
        You might also want to look at the website www.hun/magyar.com There are a number of drawings on the site with things you can use. Hope this helps! Katya
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 12, 2009
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          You might also want to look at the website www.hun/magyar.com There are a number of drawings on the site with things you can use. Hope this helps!
          Katya




          ________________________________
          From: John Staeck <avarjanos@...>
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 10:42:41 PM
          Subject: Re: [sig] 14th Century Mens Clothing


          Hi. Kepes Kronika is Hungarian and dates to about that time period, certainly the first half of the 14th century is a good ballpark. It can be inter-library loaned and has been reproduced at least once with full color plates. In the short haul, a wikipedia search will get you a few of the miniatures on your screen so you can get an idea of what is present.

          Also, remember that Trencin, just north of Nitra, was a stronghold of Mate Csak, who was a rival of Charles Robert, the Angevin claimant to the throne. You might have found more active responses against the mainstream styles of central Hungary in the region as a way to demonstrating defiance/difference to the increasing Italian/French influences in the central and southern regions. Just theorizing on that, would need to do some careful research to see if that was the case.

          FWIW - best

          Voros Janos

          --- On Wed, 8/12/09, Eric Bruning <erich.bruning@ gmail.com> wrote:

          From: Eric Bruning <erich.bruning@ gmail.com>
          Subject: [sig] 14th Century Mens Clothing
          To: sig@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Wednesday, August 12, 2009, 8:31 PM



          Hello everyone,

          I am working on improving my soft kit, and was wondering if there are any books or sources for mens clothing in the early 14th Century. The area I am portraying (SCA) is the Nitra Region (modern day Slovakia), which would have been part of North Western Hungary at that time. I'm also not the most skilled with needle and thread, but can do passable basic items. May be able to get help for some things.

          I've searched a bit on-line, but most of what I see is for later time periods. Is there much difference between the regions in the earlier 14th century?

          Thanks for any help,

          Rudolph

          Stonemarche, East (New Hampshire, USA)











          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • quokkaqueen
          Sadly, I can only think of clothes from neighbouring Bohemia, but I ll add some links, just so if worst comes to worst you can compare the 14th century dress
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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            Sadly, I can only think of clothes from neighbouring Bohemia, but I'll add some links, just so if worst comes to worst you can compare the 14th century dress with other 14th century sources you find.

            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_21.htm
            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/6_Dobove/07_Svrchniky/VI_07_08.htm

            http://www.kostym.cz/Anglicky/1_Originaly/01_Goticke/I_01_26.htm

            There is a manuscript, called the "Hungarian Anjou Legendary" that might be helpful for images of clothing. It was made in Italy for a Hungarian patron in the 14th century.
            see page 2: http://www.themorgan.org/about/press/PagesOfGoldChecklist.pdf
            and http://www.oszk.hu/eng/kiallit/virtualis/3kodex/3kodex_tartalom_en.htm

            Hope some of that is vaguely useful.
            ~Asfridhr

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Bruning" <erich.bruning@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello everyone,
            >
            > I am working on improving my soft kit, and was wondering if there are any books or sources for mens clothing in the early 14th Century. The area I am portraying (SCA) is the Nitra Region (modern day Slovakia), which would have been part of North Western Hungary at that time. I'm also not the most skilled with needle and thread, but can do passable basic items. May be able to get help for some things.
            >
            > I've searched a bit on-line, but most of what I see is for later time periods. Is there much difference between the regions in the earlier 14th century?
            >
            > Thanks for any help,
            >
            > Rudolph
            > Stonemarche, East (New Hampshire, USA)
            >
          • Erich Bruning
            .Thanks for the links, these should give me a good start. The hun/ magyar.com site turned out to be a dating site, but hunmagyar.org looks to be the url for
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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              .Thanks for the links, these should give me a good start. The hun/
              magyar.com site turned out to be a dating site, but hunmagyar.org looks to
              be the url for the history site.

              Rudolph

              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lori h-b/ raven
              On the Hunmagyar.org site the coat of arms has the Lithuanian cross on it. Can someone explain why, historically speaking of course. Is it because the Grand
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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                On the Hunmagyar.org site the coat of arms has the Lithuanian cross on it. Can someone explain why, historically speaking of course. Is it because the Grand Duchy at one time held that region?
                 
                raven


                After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Staeck
                Hi.  The two-branched cross, called the Apostlitic Cross, is common in the region, also appearing in Slovakian heraldry and in other Slavic states and
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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                  Hi.  The two-branched cross, called the Apostlitic Cross, is common in the region, also appearing in Slovakian heraldry and in other Slavic states and societies.  At least one story goes that it was brought to the region by Cyrill and Methodius in their mission to the magnates of Moravia in the 800's AD.  The Moravian crosses, though, are not Apostlitic (at least the famous one from Mikulcice).  In Hungary, St. Stephen converted to Christianity and apparently adopted this style cross as an image of his rule.  It appears in Hungarian designs periodically, including on the royal seal of Bela (the fourth??, sorry, a little rusty on my Hungarian dynasties).  The cross was still in use a couple of years ago by Bulgarian clergy at a ceremony honoring Cyrill and his teachings at Mikulcice in southern Moravia.

                  FWIW  best

                  Voros Janos

                  --- On Thu, 8/13/09, lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...> wrote:

                  From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...>
                  Subject: [sig] confused
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 8:20 AM






                   





                  On the Hunmagyar.org site the coat of arms has the Lithuanian cross on it. Can someone explain why, historically speaking of course. Is it because the Grand Duchy at one time held that region?

                   

                  raven



                  After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sfandra
                  BTW raven, did you see what Asfridr posted on her LJ yesterday I think it was? http://www.hnm.hu/en/kiall/MonthlyArchive.php?id=30993 --Sfandra
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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                    BTW raven, did you see what Asfridr posted on her LJ yesterday I think it was?

                    http://www.hnm.hu/en/kiall/MonthlyArchive.php?id=30993

                    --Sfandra



                    --- On Thu, 8/13/09, lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...> wrote:

                    > From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...>
                    > Subject: [sig] confused
                    > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 9:20 AM
                    > On the Hunmagyar.org site the coat of
                    > arms has the Lithuanian cross on it. Can someone explain
                    > why, historically speaking of course. Is it because the
                    > Grand Duchy at one time held that region?
                    >  
                    > raven
                    >
                    >
                    > After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same
                    > box.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Elaine Manyoki
                    Thanks...my eyesight isn t what it used to be, and I apologize for the mistake... Katya ________________________________ From: Erich Bruning
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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                      Thanks...my eyesight isn't what it used to be, and I apologize for the mistake...
                      Katya




                      ________________________________
                      From: Erich Bruning <erich.bruning@...>
                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 8:33:15 AM
                      Subject: Re: [sig] Re: 14th Century Mens Clothing


                      .Thanks for the links, these should give me a good start. The hun/
                      magyar.com site turned out to be a dating site, but hunmagyar.org looks to
                      be the url for the history site.

                      Rudolph

                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lori h-b/ raven
                      I don t do the LJ thing but thanks so much for the link! The dresses are awesome, although I surely don t like the pregnant look.   raven After the game, the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 13, 2009
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                        I don't do the LJ thing but thanks so much for the link! The dresses are awesome, although I surely don't like the pregnant look.
                         
                        raven


                        After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

                        --- On Thu, 8/13/09, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:


                        From: Sfandra <seonaid13@...>
                        Subject: Re: [sig] confused
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 3:45 PM


                         



                        BTW raven, did you see what Asfridr posted on her LJ yesterday I think it was?

                        http://www.hnm hu/en/kiall/ MonthlyArchive. php?id=30993

                        --Sfandra

                        --- On Thu, 8/13/09, lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        > From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@yahoo. com>
                        > Subject: [sig] confused
                        > To: sig@yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Thursday, August 13, 2009, 9:20 AM
                        > On the Hunmagyar.org site the coat of
                        > arms has the Lithuanian cross on it. Can someone explain
                        > why, historically speaking of course. Is it because the
                        > Grand Duchy at one time held that region?
                        >  
                        > raven
                        >
                        >
                        > After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same
                        > box.
                        >
                        >
                        >



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • panimagdalena56
                        Hi Raven. I have been following your posts about 15th century Lithuanian women s clothing. If anyone has the pictures from the class at Pennsic I would very
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 14, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Raven. I have been following your posts about 15th century Lithuanian women's clothing. If anyone has the pictures from the class at Pennsic I would very much like to see them. Maybe someone could set them up in a folder for us?

                          Lithuania in the 15th century would be part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. While I'm not as knowledgeable about Lithuania, my guess would be it wasn't much different from Poland in that, the royalty married into sometimes Western European sometimes Byzantine Royal families. And those consorts brought their styles with them.

                          The article on the Mary of Hapsburg dress does explain this. So keep in mind, if a dress is from royalty and even some of the nobles, it probably has a very strong western influence.

                          The women of the magistrate class (town burgher and mayor's wives and daughters) were the wannabe's of that era. They wanted to be like the Western Europeans and emulated their style of dressing.

                          Finding a style of clothing that is uniquely Lithuanian (or Polish) is a little harder. Even Barbara Radziwill, the wife of King Sigismund in the 16th century,the daughter of a powerful Lithuanian family, is shown in very Western dress. What makes Central/Eastern European dress unique is the details.

                          I can send you some scans of headdresses of Barbara that are pearl encrusted and enclose all but her face. They must weigh a ton and be hot to wear.

                          Typically in our area of interest, lower nobles and "county folk" held on to the traditional dress of their area either out of need or patriotism.

                          So, to make a long story long, it depends on what you are looking for as far as garb. If I can help you, give me a shout. We don't live that far from each other and I'll be seeing you in Oct.

                          In Service,
                          Magdalena
                        • lori h-b/ raven
                          I m trying to purchase Ruta Guzeviciute s book that Pat had at Pennsic. Once I get it I ll figure out how to construct it. I have the event in Oct. well
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 14, 2009
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                            I'm trying to purchase Ruta Guzeviciute's book that Pat had at Pennsic. Once I get it I'll figure out how to construct it. I have the event in Oct. well organized so I can put a little time into looking for the Lithuanian garb I want to make. Bring whatever you can to the event and we'll talk there.
                             
                            BTW for anyone near south central PA who wants to attend the event Oct. 10th East Kingdom, it's an Italian Schola with a lot going on. We're still looking for teachers & merchants!!!
                             
                            see ya soon,
                            raven


                            After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

                            --- On Fri, 8/14/09, panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...> wrote:


                            From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
                            Subject: [sig] Re: confused
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 7:14 AM


                             



                            Hi Raven. I have been following your posts about 15th century Lithuanian women's clothing. If anyone has the pictures from the class at Pennsic I would very much like to see them. Maybe someone could set them up in a folder for us?

                            Lithuania in the 15th century would be part of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. While I'm not as knowledgeable about Lithuania, my guess would be it wasn't much different from Poland in that, the royalty married into sometimes Western European sometimes Byzantine Royal families. And those consorts brought their styles with them.

                            The article on the Mary of Hapsburg dress does explain this. So keep in mind, if a dress is from royalty and even some of the nobles, it probably has a very strong western influence.

                            The women of the magistrate class (town burgher and mayor's wives and daughters) were the wannabe's of that era. They wanted to be like the Western Europeans and emulated their style of dressing.

                            Finding a style of clothing that is uniquely Lithuanian (or Polish) is a little harder. Even Barbara Radziwill, the wife of King Sigismund in the 16th century,the daughter of a powerful Lithuanian family, is shown in very Western dress. What makes Central/Eastern European dress unique is the details.

                            I can send you some scans of headdresses of Barbara that are pearl encrusted and enclose all but her face. They must weigh a ton and be hot to wear.

                            Typically in our area of interest, lower nobles and "county folk" held on to the traditional dress of their area either out of need or patriotism.

                            So, to make a long story long, it depends on what you are looking for as far as garb. If I can help you, give me a shout. We don't live that far from each other and I'll be seeing you in Oct.

                            In Service,
                            Magdalena



















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Patoodle@aol.com
                            Hi, Raven and Magdalena -- I have been meaning to respond, but I had to find my scanned images first. I just put two scanned images from that book into a new
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 17, 2009
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                              Hi, Raven and Magdalena --



                              I have been meaning to respond, but I had to find my scanned images first. I just put two scanned images from that book into a new folder called "Lithuania" into the Photos section of the SIG group. However, the images are awaiting the moderator's approval.



                              One image is of Elzbieta Habsburgaite and the other is of Barbora Radvilaite. ("Nezinomas dailininkas" appearently means "unknown artist" in Lithuanian.")



                              The same portrait of Elzbieta?as the book appears on this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_of_Austria_(1526%E2%80%931545).



                              A different portrait of Barbara Radziwill is on her Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Radziwill. None of the illustrations on that page are from the SCA period, however!!



                              Finally, check out this group of portraits of the Jagellonian family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jagiellon_Family.jpg. The painting in the upper right-hand corner (Barbara R.) is also in Guzeviciute's book.



                              I'll keep the October 10th East Kingdom event in mind -- it's not that far from me -- BUT I might have to use that day for travel to California for my employer's annual meeting.



                              Take care,

                              Patricia of Trakai




                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@...>
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2009 11:43 am
                              Subject: [sig] confused and Oct event




                              I'm trying to purchase Ruta Guzeviciute's book that Pat had at Pennsic. Once I
                              get it I'll figure out how to construct it. I have the event in Oct. well
                              organized so I can put a little time into looking for the Lithuanian garb I want
                              to make. Bring whatever you can to the event and we'll talk there.
                              ?
                              BTW for anyone near south central PA who wants to attend?the event Oct. 10th
                              East Kingdom, it's an Italian Schola with a lot going on. We're still looking
                              for teachers & merchants!!!
                              ?
                              see ya soon,
                              raven


                              After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

                              --- On Fri, 8/14/09, panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...> wrote:


                              From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@...>
                              Subject: [sig] Re: confused
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 7:14 AM


                              ?



                              Hi Raven. I have been following your posts about 15th century Lithuanian women's
                              clothing. If anyone has the pictures from the class at Pennsic I would very much
                              like to see them. Maybe someone could set them up in a folder for us?

                              Lithuania in the 15th century would be part of the Polish Lithuanian
                              Commonwealth. While I'm not as knowledgeable about Lithuania, my guess would be
                              it wasn't much different from Poland in that, the royalty married into sometimes
                              Western European sometimes Byzantine Royal families. And those consorts brought
                              their styles with them.

                              The article on the Mary of Hapsburg dress does explain this. So keep in mind, if
                              a dress is from royalty and even some of the nobles, it probably has a very
                              strong western influence.

                              The women of the magistrate class (town burgher and mayor's wives and daughters)
                              were the wannabe's of that era. They wanted to be like the Western Europeans and
                              emulated their style of dressing.

                              Finding a style of clothing that is uniquely Lithuanian (or Polish) is a little
                              harder. Even Barbara Radziwill, the wife of King Sigismund in the 16th
                              century,the daughter of a powerful Lithuanian family, is shown in very Western
                              dress. What makes Central/Eastern European dress unique is
                              the details.

                              I can send you some scans of headdresses of Barbara that are pearl encrusted and
                              enclose all but her face. They must weigh a ton and be hot to wear.

                              Typically in our area of interest, lower nobles and "county folk" held on to the
                              traditional dress of their area either out of need or patriotism.

                              So, to make a long story long, it depends on what you are looking for as far as
                              garb. If I can help you, give me a shout. We don't live that far from each other
                              and I'll be seeing you in Oct.

                              In Service,
                              Magdalena



















                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • lori h-b/ raven
                              I m trying to get the book. They only take bank transfer so my bank is working on wiring the money. I really enjoyed the book and want my own copy. In doing
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I'm trying to get the book. They only take bank transfer so my bank is working on wiring the money. I really enjoyed the book and want my own copy. In doing research I'm finding a lot of references that while not specifically Lithuanian are intertwined with other noble families in Europe. That said the clothing styles have a wide range, which would explain why one of the gowns looked like a cross between Landsknect and Venetian.
                                 
                                raven

                                After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

                                --- On Mon, 8/17/09, Patoodle@... <Patoodle@...> wrote:


                                From: Patoodle@... <Patoodle@...>
                                Subject: Re: [sig] confused and Oct event
                                To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Monday, August 17, 2009, 12:07 PM


                                 




                                Hi, Raven and Magdalena --

                                I have been meaning to respond, but I had to find my scanned images first. I just put two scanned images from that book into a new folder called "Lithuania" into the Photos section of the SIG group. However, the images are awaiting the moderator's approval.

                                One image is of Elzbieta Habsburgaite and the other is of Barbora Radvilaite. ("Nezinomas dailininkas" appearently means "unknown artist" in Lithuanian." )

                                The same portrait of Elzbieta?as the book appears on this Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Elisabeth_ of_Austria_(1526%E2%80% 931545).

                                A different portrait of Barbara Radziwill is on her Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Barbara_Radziwil l. None of the illustrations on that page are from the SCA period, however!!

                                Finally, check out this group of portraits of the Jagellonian family: http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ File:Jagiellon_ Family.jpg. The painting in the upper right-hand corner (Barbara R.) is also in Guzeviciute' s book.

                                I'll keep the October 10th East Kingdom event in mind -- it's not that far from me -- BUT I might have to use that day for travel to California for my employer's annual meeting.

                                Take care,

                                Patricia of Trakai

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: lori h-b/ raven <lhb17201@yahoo. com>
                                To: sig@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2009 11:43 am
                                Subject: [sig] confused and Oct event

                                I'm trying to purchase Ruta Guzeviciute' s book that Pat had at Pennsic. Once I
                                get it I'll figure out how to construct it. I have the event in Oct. well
                                organized so I can put a little time into looking for the Lithuanian garb I want
                                to make. Bring whatever you can to the event and we'll talk there.
                                ?
                                BTW for anyone near south central PA who wants to attend?the event Oct. 10th
                                East Kingdom, it's an Italian Schola with a lot going on. We're still looking
                                for teachers & merchants!!!
                                ?
                                see ya soon,
                                raven

                                After the game, the king and the pawn go into the same box.

                                --- On Fri, 8/14/09, panimagdalena56 <nunother56@comcast. net> wrote:

                                From: panimagdalena56 <nunother56@comcast. net>
                                Subject: [sig] Re: confused
                                To: sig@yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Friday, August 14, 2009, 7:14 AM

                                ?

                                Hi Raven. I have been following your posts about 15th century Lithuanian women's
                                clothing. If anyone has the pictures from the class at Pennsic I would very much
                                like to see them. Maybe someone could set them up in a folder for us?

                                Lithuania in the 15th century would be part of the Polish Lithuanian
                                Commonwealth. While I'm not as knowledgeable about Lithuania, my guess would be
                                it wasn't much different from Poland in that, the royalty married into sometimes
                                Western European sometimes Byzantine Royal families. And those consorts brought
                                their styles with them.

                                The article on the Mary of Hapsburg dress does explain this. So keep in mind, if
                                a dress is from royalty and even some of the nobles, it probably has a very
                                strong western influence.

                                The women of the magistrate class (town burgher and mayor's wives and daughters)
                                were the wannabe's of that era. They wanted to be like the Western Europeans and
                                emulated their style of dressing.

                                Finding a style of clothing that is uniquely Lithuanian (or Polish) is a little
                                harder. Even Barbara Radziwill, the wife of King Sigismund in the 16th
                                century,the daughter of a powerful Lithuanian family, is shown in very Western
                                dress. What makes Central/Eastern European dress unique is
                                the details.

                                I can send you some scans of headdresses of Barbara that are pearl encrusted and
                                enclose all but her face. They must weigh a ton and be hot to wear.

                                Typically in our area of interest, lower nobles and "county folk" held on to the
                                traditional dress of their area either out of need or patriotism.

                                So, to make a long story long, it depends on what you are looking for as far as
                                garb. If I can help you, give me a shout. We don't live that far from each other
                                and I'll be seeing you in Oct.

                                In Service,
                                Magdalena

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                              • panimagdalena56
                                I added some photos from my collection to my Pani Magdalena photo file that are also waiting for approval. The photograph is a 19th century Polish actress
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 18, 2009
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                                  I added some photos from my collection to my Pani Magdalena photo file that are also waiting for approval.

                                  The photograph is a 19th century Polish actress portraying Barbara Radziwill. The other scans are from the Polish clothing book, Polski Ubior. The more western looking dress is Elizabeth Hapsburg. Both women were wives of Zygmunt Augusta, king of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in the late 1500's. Elizabeth was his first wife but he is said to have been madly in love with Barbara. There are also rumors that his mother, Queen Bona (Sforza) may have had Barbara killed/poisoned from which Zygmunt never recovered.

                                  Magdalena
                                • panimagdalena56
                                  ... The photos are now in my Panimagdalena folder. IMHO, the dress worn by Barbara Radziwill would be characteristic of our area area than the one worn by
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 19, 2009
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                                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "panimagdalena56" <nunother56@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    The photos are now in my Panimagdalena folder. IMHO, the dress worn by Barbara Radziwill would be characteristic of our area area than the one worn by Elizabeth of Hapsburg which is very western in style. I have not seen this type of neckline, chemise or headdress in other countries. I've tried looking atBohemia, Hungary and Germany, Poland's closest neighbors other than Russia. I leave Russia to our Russian experts but I will say that women's clothing in Russia resembles Byzantine clothing more than western style clothing. Meaning, loose fitting outer robes especially. You really don't see close fitting dresses on the women (of Russia).

                                    If someone who knows more than I about the women's clothing in the countries surrounding Poland/Lithuania, I'd love to hear about it! Pictures are always helpful.

                                    In Service,
                                    Magdalena
                                  • quokkaqueen
                                    At the Lietuvos Pilys castle website: http://www.lietuvospilys.lt/index-en.htm go Radiniai Keramika Kokliai Loviniai and there are a few painted and
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 20, 2009
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                                      At the "Lietuvos Pilys" castle website:
                                      http://www.lietuvospilys.lt/index-en.htm
                                      go Radiniai> Keramika> Kokliai >Loviniai and there are a few painted and unpainted 16th century tiles.
                                      The 'Karūnėlės' section has some male shield-bearers, too.

                                      Abraham de Bruyn (1540 - 1587) also drew Lithuanians in his costume book
                                      "Omnium pene Europae, Asiae, Aphricae atque Americae Gentium Habitus"
                                      http://collectionsonline.lacma.org/mwebcgi/mweb.exe?request=record;id=93772;type=1.jpg
                                      or http://pearl.dreamwidth.org/203988.html
                                      (They are, like most costume books, redrawings see: http://pearl.livejournal.com/132435.html for more examples)

                                      Oh, and for comparison, the 'Renaissance in Estonia' website:
                                      http://www.einst.ee/Ea/2/TEXT/kuuske.htm


                                      For peasant and lower-class dress in Lithuania based on archaeological finds, see:
                                      Saule Urbanviciene "Survivals of Paganism in 14th-17th century Graves in Lithuania" in Michael Müller-Wille [ed] Rom und Byzanz im Norden: Mission und Glaubenswechsel im Ostseeraum während des 8.-14. Jährhunderts (Franz Steiner Verlag, 1997)

                                      Hope that helps,
                                      Asfridhr


                                      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "panimagdalena56" <nunother56@> wrote:
                                      <<snip>>
                                      > If someone who knows more than I about the women's clothing in the countries surrounding Poland/Lithuania, I'd love to hear about it! Pictures are always helpful.
                                      >
                                      > In Service,
                                      > Magdalena
                                      >
                                    • panimagdalena56
                                      Wow! Thank you for sharing. I ve never come across these pictures. A whole new area for reasearch. In Service Magdalena
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 20, 2009
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                                        Wow! Thank you for sharing. I've never come across these pictures. A whole new area for reasearch.

                                        In Service
                                        Magdalena
                                      • hillofbees
                                        ... Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source, Irita Žeire s recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18.
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 23, 2009
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                                          > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "panimagdalena56" <nunother56@> wrote:
                                          > <<snip>>
                                          > > If someone who knows more than I about the women's clothing in the countries surrounding Poland/Lithuania, I'd love to hear about it! Pictures are always helpful.
                                          > >
                                          > > In Service,
                                          > > Magdalena

                                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Oh, and for comparison, the 'Renaissance in Estonia' website:
                                          > http://www.einst.ee/Ea/2/TEXT/kuuske.htm
                                          >

                                          Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source, Irita Žeire's recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18. Gadsimtā [Archeological Investigations on Clothing in Latvia in the 13th-18th centuries]. It has a pretty good summary in English. Most of the material is archaeological and in scraps. Not an easy one to get hold of, published by the Latvian National History Museum, but i can copy and send bits offlist if there is anything in particular you'd be interested in.

                                          best, Ynes
                                        • hillofbees
                                          ... Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source, Irita Žeire s recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18.
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 23, 2009
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                                            > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "panimagdalena56" <nunother56@> wrote:
                                            > <<snip>>
                                            > > If someone who knows more than I about the women's clothing in the countries surrounding Poland/Lithuania, I'd love to hear about it! Pictures are always helpful.
                                            > >
                                            > > In Service,
                                            > > Magdalena

                                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Oh, and for comparison, the 'Renaissance in Estonia' website:
                                            > http://www.einst.ee/Ea/2/TEXT/kuuske.htm
                                            >

                                            Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source, Irita Žeire's recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18. Gadsimtā [Archeological Investigations on Clothing in Latvia in the 13th-18th centuries]. It has a pretty good summary in English. Most of the material is archaeological and in scraps. Not an easy one to get hold of, published by the Latvian National History Museum, but i can copy and send bits offlist if there is anything in particular you'd be interested in.

                                            best, Ynes
                                          • kirstenobna
                                            I would dearly love to see the earliest pictures in there... 14th century and earlier (12th if it has anything!). Many many thanks!!! Rekon, who has been
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 25, 2009
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                                              I would dearly love to see the earliest pictures in there... 14th century and earlier (12th if it has anything!). Many many thanks!!!

                                              Rekon, who has been inferring what she can't document & wouldlove some sources


                                              > Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source, Irita Žeire's recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18. Gadsimtā [Archeological Investigations on Clothing in Latvia in the 13th-18th centuries]. It has a pretty good summary in English. Most of the material is archaeological and in scraps. Not an easy one to get hold of, published by the Latvian National History Museum, but i can copy and send bits offlist if there is anything in particular you'd be interested in.
                                              >
                                              > best, Ynes
                                              >
                                            • hillofbees
                                              ... century and earlier (12th if it has anything!). Many many thanks!!! ... sources ... Irita Žeire s recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par Apģērbu
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                                                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "kirstenobna" <kirstenmae@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I would dearly love to see the earliest pictures in there... 14th
                                                century and earlier (12th if it has anything!). Many many thanks!!!
                                                >
                                                > Rekon, who has been inferring what she can't document & wouldlove some
                                                sources
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > Further to the Estonian material, I recommend a Latvian source,
                                                Irita Žeire's recent book Arheoloģiskās Liecības Par
                                                Apģērbu Latvijā 13.-18. Gadsimtā [Archeological
                                                Investigations on Clothing in Latvia in the 13th-18th centuries]. It has
                                                a pretty good summary in English. Most of the material is archaeological
                                                and in scraps. Not an easy one to get hold of, published by the Latvian
                                                National History Museum, but i can copy and send bits offlist if there
                                                is anything in particular you'd be interested in.
                                                > >
                                                > > best, Ynes
                                                > >
                                                >
                                              • hillofbees
                                                Ack! Sorry! I do not know what is happening with my Yahoo! What I thought I had posted was this - Hey all, it s great to see the interest in Latvian dress! I
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                                                  Ack! Sorry! I do not know what is happening with my Yahoo! What I thought I had posted was this -

                                                  Hey all, it's great to see the interest in Latvian dress!

                                                  I wrote a longer response to Patricia offlist so I'll use some of it again here. Please skip over any bits you know. There's a lot of knowledge on this list and I don't want to preach to the choir.

                                                  Historic clothing in Latvia is divided into two periods – archaeological and ethnographic, or traditional. The former is usually dated up to around the end of the 14th century, though with the increasing German presence and eventual occupation of the Baltic areas the indigenous archaeological finds, which determine what is known about dress, decline in quality and quantity. Then, in the later period, it's based on the more numerous pictorial and surviving clothing and starts roughly mid-18th century. The period in the middle is pretty unknown, c. late 14th-17th centuries. Latvian historians determine their middle ages as being 1200-1561. There are very few people researching dress even in Latvia. Irita Zeire is one; another, working on later periods, is Anete Karlsone.

                                                  Pretty much the bulk of the recent, high quality knowledge about archaeological textiles comes from the work on Anna Zarina (accented `n' for `ny' sound – I don't trust the character to come out right!) Her books, primarily Libiesu Apgerbs [Liv Clothing 10th-13th centuries] and Abgerbu Latvia [Clothing in Latvia, 7th-17th centuries], are the start for anyone researching these periods. I've found them in big national libraries, but they are nearly impossible to get hold of second hand even in Latvia. Also, and this is the big barrier to researching Baltic dress in the period, they are in Latvian and for the Soviet-era publications, have some Russian translations, but no English. The next most accessible source is the fabulous three volume series on the whole of Latvian traditional dress, with some archaeological material and summary translations in English. Again, usually available only in Latvia though far more readily. The journal Arheologija has some interesting short articles often with English abstracts.

                                                  All this is sort of leading up to a shameless plug for an article I have coming out next year, if you can hold on til April. It's been written with Ieva Pigozne, who runs the www.arheo.lv site (go if you haven't and are interested in this time and place) and will be published in Medieval Clothing and Textile. It covers Latvian clothing and textiles form the 7th – 13th centuries, with a few pictures, drawn or photographed for the article so new material if you're already familiar with the material. It's (really shameless plug!) as far as we know the first dedicated refereed academic article on the subject written in English, rather than translation. We've concentrated quite a lot on including a broad bibliography/historiography in the references with pointers in the texts so people will have a start of what to look for. I was going to wait til it was published to announce on the list but it since people seem interested... ☺

                                                  For anyone who is looking to reproduce clothing in our period, my short two cents would be to look at whether you're doing native Liv or Baltic, or occupying country's dress. If occupiers, go with the fashions from the source, probably German depending when it is. The style of native archaeological dress is so stable that it still appears, changed only in decoration, in a lot of the 19th century ethnographic dress. So until more evidence comes out of the earth about the specifics of the evolution of changes around 15th-17th centuries, go with the earlier periods. The main changes are in type and quantity of decoration which Zeire and Zarina do provide some details of. Then watch this space and hope archaeology gets more funding if Latvia's economy ever recovers!

                                                  Cheers, Ynes (de Toledo)
                                                • Catherine Olanich Raymond
                                                  On Wednesday 26 August 2009 6:30:10 pm hillofbees wrote: [snip] ... That sounds great! Thanks for mentioning it; I ll be waiting.... -- Cathy Raymond
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Aug 26, 2009
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                                                    On Wednesday 26 August 2009 6:30:10 pm hillofbees wrote:

                                                    [snip]

                                                    > All this is sort of leading up to a shameless plug for an article I have
                                                    > coming out next year, if you can hold on til April. It's been written with
                                                    > Ieva Pigozne, who runs the www.arheo.lv site (go if you haven't and are
                                                    > interested in this time and place) and will be published in Medieval
                                                    > Clothing and Textile. It covers Latvian clothing and textiles form the 7th
                                                    > – 13th centuries, with a few pictures, drawn or photographed for the
                                                    > article so new material if you're already familiar with the material. It's
                                                    > (really shameless plug!) as far as we know the first dedicated refereed
                                                    > academic article on the subject written in English, rather than
                                                    > translation. We've concentrated quite a lot on including a broad
                                                    > bibliography/historiography in the references with pointers in the texts so
                                                    > people will have a start of what to look for. I was going to wait til it
                                                    > was published to announce on the list but it since people seem
                                                    > interested...

                                                    That sounds great! Thanks for mentioning it; I'll be waiting....

                                                    --
                                                    Cathy Raymond <cathy@...>

                                                    "A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
                                                    --Walter Bagehot
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