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Re: [sig] any ideas?

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  • jjbober4@comcast.net
    Agreed. A lot depends upon where and when factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum. Factors which will influence this: - what area
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 16, 2009
      Agreed. A lot depends upon "where and when" factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum.

      Factors which will influence this:
      - what area of Poland? If you're talking within the Silesian duchy, or in and around Krakow there is some German (read "western") influence here and some of the ceremonies will be similar.
      - the mindset also tends to differ depending upon whether the time period is before the interregnum, during, or after the reunification.

      Look in the "szlachta" chapter in "God's Playground". Though some of the references are after the specific period you're looking for I don't believe that the mindset would have changed *that* much in the intervening time. Remember that the Polish concept of feudalism is very different from the west and there was not as much of a concept of the Crown granting land, and the power coming down from the Crown, but coming up from the nobility. Something I found, and used in my oath of fealty, is that King was seen as the suzerain, or overlord, which is slightly different from the west. Also, I believe that in that chapter you can find the "duties" expected of the szlachta such as keeping and enforcing the Crown's laws, protecting the people on his land - even from the Crown, and things of that nature.

      My own elevation was not much out of the ordinary from others, but where I put my "Polish" mark on it was in my oath.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Kowal" <jpkowal@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:21:15 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
      Subject: Re: [sig] any ideas?


      This helps narrow the discussion.

      A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes.

      Does his persona spend His lifetime with the lands of Poland or does
      He leave to serve abroad? This would have an effect on the traditions
      that He would follow.

      Time period 12th-14th c. Basically 1101 - 1399. If He resides within
      Poland Quite a lot goes around that time period, i.e. the official
      acknowledgment of the Kingdom, attachment to the Catholic Church,
      expansion, then contraction by dynastic disputes, some recovery, and
      the Mongol threats.

      While I do not know of any surviving descriptions of knighting
      ceremonies per se. One can draw many references from the culture of
      western europe as Poland is perhaps the most western in style of
      thought and culture of the many Slavic peoples. As mentioned earlier
      inferences from Coronation descriptions also give clues to style and
      ideas to incorporate within a proposed ceremony.

      Can the time frame be narrowed down any further?

      There are a number of interesting articles at the below web site that
      can offer hints for further paths to follow.


      On 14-Jun-09, at 2:55 PM, Karen McInturff wrote:

      > His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I
      > believe) He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his
      > ceremony. Not sure if that helps. Thank you so much for your help!
      > Much Thanks,
      > Karen
      > Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva Life is a series of roads, where we end
      > up along the way is ours to decide.

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