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Re: [sig] any ideas?

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  • Karen McInturff
    His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I believe)  He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his ceremony.  Not sure if
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 14, 2009
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      His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I believe)  He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his ceremony.  Not sure if that helps.  Thank you so much for your help!

      Much Thanks,
      Karen
      Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva   Life is a series of roads, where we end up along the way is ours to decide.

      --- On Sat, 6/13/09, John Kowal <jpkowal@...> wrote:

      From: John Kowal <jpkowal@...>
      Subject: Re: [sig] any ideas?
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:54 PM

















      Greetings!

      Congratulations to Your Friend on being invited into Peerage.



      Do You have a time period in question? And what type of Slav in what

      region of Europe? Will the choice be Knighthood or Master at Arms?

      Further information would help in offering ideas.

      AVL



      On 2-Jun-09, at 8:41 PM, karen wrote:







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Kowal
      Greetings; This helps narrow the discussion. A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes. Does his persona spend His lifetime with the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 14, 2009
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        Greetings;

        This helps narrow the discussion.

        A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes.

        Does his persona spend His lifetime with the lands of Poland or does
        He leave to serve abroad? This would have an effect on the traditions
        that He would follow.

        Time period 12th-14th c. Basically 1101 - 1399. If He resides within
        Poland Quite a lot goes around that time period, i.e. the official
        acknowledgment of the Kingdom, attachment to the Catholic Church,
        expansion, then contraction by dynastic disputes, some recovery, and
        the Mongol threats.

        While I do not know of any surviving descriptions of knighting
        ceremonies per se. One can draw many references from the culture of
        western europe as Poland is perhaps the most western in style of
        thought and culture of the many Slavic peoples. As mentioned earlier
        inferences from Coronation descriptions also give clues to style and
        ideas to incorporate within a proposed ceremony.

        Can the time frame be narrowed down any further?

        There are a number of interesting articles at the below web site that
        can offer hints for further paths to follow.
        http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/early/link.shtml

        AVL

        On 14-Jun-09, at 2:55 PM, Karen McInturff wrote:

        >
        >
        > His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I
        > believe) He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his
        > ceremony. Not sure if that helps. Thank you so much for your help!
        >
        > Much Thanks,
        > Karen
        > Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva Life is a series of roads, where we end
        > up along the way is ours to decide.
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jjbober4@comcast.net
        Agreed. A lot depends upon where and when factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum. Factors which will influence this: - what area
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 16, 2009
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          Agreed. A lot depends upon "where and when" factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum.

          Factors which will influence this:
          - what area of Poland? If you're talking within the Silesian duchy, or in and around Krakow there is some German (read "western") influence here and some of the ceremonies will be similar.
          - the mindset also tends to differ depending upon whether the time period is before the interregnum, during, or after the reunification.

          Look in the "szlachta" chapter in "God's Playground". Though some of the references are after the specific period you're looking for I don't believe that the mindset would have changed *that* much in the intervening time. Remember that the Polish concept of feudalism is very different from the west and there was not as much of a concept of the Crown granting land, and the power coming down from the Crown, but coming up from the nobility. Something I found, and used in my oath of fealty, is that King was seen as the suzerain, or overlord, which is slightly different from the west. Also, I believe that in that chapter you can find the "duties" expected of the szlachta such as keeping and enforcing the Crown's laws, protecting the people on his land - even from the Crown, and things of that nature.

          My own elevation was not much out of the ordinary from others, but where I put my "Polish" mark on it was in my oath.

          Jan

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Kowal" <jpkowal@...>
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:21:15 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
          Subject: Re: [sig] any ideas?








          Greetings;

          This helps narrow the discussion.

          A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes.

          Does his persona spend His lifetime with the lands of Poland or does
          He leave to serve abroad? This would have an effect on the traditions
          that He would follow.

          Time period 12th-14th c. Basically 1101 - 1399. If He resides within
          Poland Quite a lot goes around that time period, i.e. the official
          acknowledgment of the Kingdom, attachment to the Catholic Church,
          expansion, then contraction by dynastic disputes, some recovery, and
          the Mongol threats.

          While I do not know of any surviving descriptions of knighting
          ceremonies per se. One can draw many references from the culture of
          western europe as Poland is perhaps the most western in style of
          thought and culture of the many Slavic peoples. As mentioned earlier
          inferences from Coronation descriptions also give clues to style and
          ideas to incorporate within a proposed ceremony.

          Can the time frame be narrowed down any further?

          There are a number of interesting articles at the below web site that
          can offer hints for further paths to follow.
          http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/early/link.shtml

          AVL

          On 14-Jun-09, at 2:55 PM, Karen McInturff wrote:

          >
          >
          > His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I
          > believe) He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his
          > ceremony. Not sure if that helps. Thank you so much for your help!
          >
          > Much Thanks,
          > Karen
          > Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva Life is a series of roads, where we end
          > up along the way is ours to decide.
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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