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  • karen
    Greetings all! A good friend of mine is being knighted at Pennsic and has asked me about period Slavic knighting ceremonies or the equivalent of one. I
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 2, 2009
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      Greetings all! A good friend of mine is being knighted at Pennsic and has asked me about period Slavic knighting ceremonies or the equivalent of one. I haven't had any luck on my own yet and was wondering if anyone else has come across anything on this topic. Any help would be wonderful!

      Thanks to all!
      Kashka
    • John Kowal
      Greetings! Congratulations to Your Friend on being invited into Peerage. Do You have a time period in question? And what type of Slav in what region of Europe?
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 13, 2009
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        Greetings!
        Congratulations to Your Friend on being invited into Peerage.

        Do You have a time period in question? And what type of Slav in what
        region of Europe? Will the choice be Knighthood or Master at Arms?
        Further information would help in offering ideas.
        AVL

        On 2-Jun-09, at 8:41 PM, karen wrote:

        >
        >
        > Greetings all! A good friend of mine is being knighted at Pennsic
        > and has asked me about period Slavic knighting ceremonies or the
        > equivalent of one. I haven't had any luck on my own yet and was
        > wondering if anyone else has come across anything on this topic. Any
        > help would be wonderful!
        >
        > Thanks to all!
        > Kashka
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Karen McInturff
        His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I believe)  He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his ceremony.  Not sure if
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 14, 2009
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          His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I believe)  He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his ceremony.  Not sure if that helps.  Thank you so much for your help!

          Much Thanks,
          Karen
          Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva   Life is a series of roads, where we end up along the way is ours to decide.

          --- On Sat, 6/13/09, John Kowal <jpkowal@...> wrote:

          From: John Kowal <jpkowal@...>
          Subject: Re: [sig] any ideas?
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, June 13, 2009, 3:54 PM

















          Greetings!

          Congratulations to Your Friend on being invited into Peerage.



          Do You have a time period in question? And what type of Slav in what

          region of Europe? Will the choice be Knighthood or Master at Arms?

          Further information would help in offering ideas.

          AVL



          On 2-Jun-09, at 8:41 PM, karen wrote:







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]































          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Kowal
          Greetings; This helps narrow the discussion. A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes. Does his persona spend His lifetime with the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 14, 2009
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            Greetings;

            This helps narrow the discussion.

            A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes.

            Does his persona spend His lifetime with the lands of Poland or does
            He leave to serve abroad? This would have an effect on the traditions
            that He would follow.

            Time period 12th-14th c. Basically 1101 - 1399. If He resides within
            Poland Quite a lot goes around that time period, i.e. the official
            acknowledgment of the Kingdom, attachment to the Catholic Church,
            expansion, then contraction by dynastic disputes, some recovery, and
            the Mongol threats.

            While I do not know of any surviving descriptions of knighting
            ceremonies per se. One can draw many references from the culture of
            western europe as Poland is perhaps the most western in style of
            thought and culture of the many Slavic peoples. As mentioned earlier
            inferences from Coronation descriptions also give clues to style and
            ideas to incorporate within a proposed ceremony.

            Can the time frame be narrowed down any further?

            There are a number of interesting articles at the below web site that
            can offer hints for further paths to follow.
            http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/early/link.shtml

            AVL

            On 14-Jun-09, at 2:55 PM, Karen McInturff wrote:

            >
            >
            > His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I
            > believe) He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his
            > ceremony. Not sure if that helps. Thank you so much for your help!
            >
            > Much Thanks,
            > Karen
            > Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva Life is a series of roads, where we end
            > up along the way is ours to decide.
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jjbober4@comcast.net
            Agreed. A lot depends upon where and when factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum. Factors which will influence this: - what area
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 16, 2009
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              Agreed. A lot depends upon "where and when" factors as part of the period in question is during the interregnum.

              Factors which will influence this:
              - what area of Poland? If you're talking within the Silesian duchy, or in and around Krakow there is some German (read "western") influence here and some of the ceremonies will be similar.
              - the mindset also tends to differ depending upon whether the time period is before the interregnum, during, or after the reunification.

              Look in the "szlachta" chapter in "God's Playground". Though some of the references are after the specific period you're looking for I don't believe that the mindset would have changed *that* much in the intervening time. Remember that the Polish concept of feudalism is very different from the west and there was not as much of a concept of the Crown granting land, and the power coming down from the Crown, but coming up from the nobility. Something I found, and used in my oath of fealty, is that King was seen as the suzerain, or overlord, which is slightly different from the west. Also, I believe that in that chapter you can find the "duties" expected of the szlachta such as keeping and enforcing the Crown's laws, protecting the people on his land - even from the Crown, and things of that nature.

              My own elevation was not much out of the ordinary from others, but where I put my "Polish" mark on it was in my oath.

              Jan

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Kowal" <jpkowal@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 8:21:15 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
              Subject: Re: [sig] any ideas?








              Greetings;

              This helps narrow the discussion.

              A Polish persona. Not my area of direct knowledge but here goes.

              Does his persona spend His lifetime with the lands of Poland or does
              He leave to serve abroad? This would have an effect on the traditions
              that He would follow.

              Time period 12th-14th c. Basically 1101 - 1399. If He resides within
              Poland Quite a lot goes around that time period, i.e. the official
              acknowledgment of the Kingdom, attachment to the Catholic Church,
              expansion, then contraction by dynastic disputes, some recovery, and
              the Mongol threats.

              While I do not know of any surviving descriptions of knighting
              ceremonies per se. One can draw many references from the culture of
              western europe as Poland is perhaps the most western in style of
              thought and culture of the many Slavic peoples. As mentioned earlier
              inferences from Coronation descriptions also give clues to style and
              ideas to incorporate within a proposed ceremony.

              Can the time frame be narrowed down any further?

              There are a number of interesting articles at the below web site that
              can offer hints for further paths to follow.
              http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/web/history/early/link.shtml

              AVL

              On 14-Jun-09, at 2:55 PM, Karen McInturff wrote:

              >
              >
              > His persona is Polish (somewhere between 12th and 14th century I
              > believe) He is interested in incorporating Slavic elements into his
              > ceremony. Not sure if that helps. Thank you so much for your help!
              >
              > Much Thanks,
              > Karen
              > Dvoryanka Kashka Mokosheva Life is a series of roads, where we end
              > up along the way is ours to decide.
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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