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RE: [sig] Digest Number 2786

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  • D Pine
    Not at al TMI; thank you. :) Will see what I can get from books, and then I suppose just use generic noadic tribe dress from the steppes around 1000? (If there
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 10 5:09 AM
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      Not at al TMI; thank you. :) Will see what I can get from books, and then I suppose just use generic noadic tribe dress from the steppes around 1000? (If there is such a thing?)




      >I've seen info on the tribe show up in a couple of my Ukrainian history books...

      >"History of Ukraine-Rus' volume 1: From Prehistory to the Eleventh Century" by Mykhailo Hrushevsky



      >and



      >"A History of Ukraine" by Paul R. Magocsi


      >These are both history books so they don't discuss material culture to
      the depth you probably want for the SCA, but it's a start. >Mostly they
      are listed as invaders in Ukraine, though my maps showed they held
      southern Ukraine for a time. (~8th/9th century)



      >Posted by: "Suzanne"
      sovagris@...


      sovagris



      >I doubt that "Pecheneg" comes from the Turkish root for barbarian,
      since they were a Turkic group themselves. You may see it written >as
      "Patzinak" in some sources--the joys of transliteration! And I'll be
      very surprised if you find anything about their garb, since they >seem
      to have been semi-nomadic and didn't leave much behind for us to study.



      >I think they came from Central Asia, and had settled north of the
      Danube by the end of the 9th century... at one point there was an
      >alliance of the [Christian] Bulgarians and the [not Christian]
      Pechenegs against the [also Christian] Greeks (i.e., Byzantines) which
      >just sounds weird to me. :-) I've also read that the Pechenegs chased
      the Magyars out of wherever they were at that time and into the >area we
      now call Hungary, thus creating a new Magyar state. Then, the
      Byzantines tried an alliance with the Pechenegs against the >Bulgarians,
      and later convinced the Pechenegs to attack Kiev (where they were
      completely driven out by the Slavs)... and in the >middle of the 11th
      century some of the Pechenegs received Byzantine permission to settle
      south of the Danube, but they seem to have >been bad neighbors. ;-) In
      1091 they attacked Constantinople and were, basically, completely wiped
      out by yet another alliance of the >Greeks and a different group of
      Turkic people (Cumans, also called Polovtsy). I'd say the Pechenegs
      were major spoilers in their day >but, unlike some other groups, they
      didn't survive to tell us about their heroic history.





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    • Suzanne
      Devera, Thanks for asking the question! I had a lot of fun over my lunch hour today, looking for info on the Pechenegs in Ukraine... which I didn t find,
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 10 7:02 PM
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        Devera,
        Thanks for asking the question! I had a lot of fun over my lunch hour today, looking for info on the Pechenegs in Ukraine... which I didn't find, exactly, but I came across a cool book called, "Pechenegs, Cumans, Iasians: steppe peoples in medieval Hungary" (1989) by A. Paloczi Horvath, translated by T. Wilkinson. It focuses on the Cumans but the brief section on the Pechenegs includes some re-drawings of archaeological finds and I am fascinated by something described as a "leaf-shaped pendant with a 'Tree-of-life' design". To my eyes, this looks very much like the late 19th/20th century Central Asian stuff that you see marketed to American Tribal belly dancers. Generic nomadic dress, for sure -- and Sofya already pointed you to the Red Kaganate site. This author says that Central Asian designs had palmettes and beaded borders; also, that in the 11th century there's evidence of Norse influence, with twining-vine-type motifs. One thing I noticed in the Cuman section of the book is that the women's figures (small sculptures) are wearing some sort of headgear that resembles a small top hat with a veil... will have to follow up on that, 'cause I think I've seen it somewhere else (maybe Ottoman?). :-)

        The book mentions that the word Pecheneg comes from the Magyar name (Besenyok) for the people, who were originally called "Bechenek" from an Old Turkish personal name "Beche", but that it also sounds a bit like "beshe" meaning 'bird of prey'. Elsewhere I think the author said that it may also have come from the Turkish root word for "brave"... OK, get the book on Inter-Library Loan! I can't do it justice here.

        Briefly, they were semi-nomadic shepherds and extremely effective mounted warriors; most of the archaeological finds are either arms or horse gear. (Their burials are pagan--no indication that they ever converted to Islam.) They are credited with introducing the star-shaped mace to Eastern Europe. They were pushed out of Central Asia by the Cumans around 895, and in turn pushed the Magyars farther west; not long after that you hear of them playing off one group against another--making alliances with the Bulgars against the Magyars, then *with* the Magyars, then with Kiev, then against Kiev in service to the Byzantium--it makes your head spin. The author tells us that the Pechenegs were nearly wiped out in 1091 in an attack on Constantinople but that the remainder fought on until 1122, when the Byzantines rounded up the few survivors and re-settled them around the Balkans; and that at the same time, in the north, the Rus were recruiting "elements of various nomad peoples as frontier guards, including Pechenegs... Pecheneg traditions are striking in the 12th-century archaeological relics of this population, who were called Chernye Klobuki ('Black Caps') by the Russians." (p.26) I'll bet that's how some of the family traditions of Pecheneg ancestors originated! (BTW, those traditions seem to involve the Pecheneg ancestor converting to Christianity.)

        Well, this has been fun. How 'bout we all go to Ages of War as Pechenegs?? ;-)
        Susanna

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, D Pine <devpine@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Not at al TMI; thank you. :) Will see what I can get from books, and then I suppose just use generic nomadic tribe dress from the steppes around 1000? (If there is such a thing?)
        >
        >
        <trimmed>
      • L.M. Kies
        ... Works for me! I think you should teach a class about it too. ;-) Sofya ... Lisa M. Kies, MD aka HL Sofya la Rus, CW, CSH, uchenitsa Kramolnikova Mason
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 11 6:03 PM
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          >Well, this has been fun. How 'bout we all go to Ages of War as Pechenegs?? ;-)
          >
          >Susanna

          Works for me!

          I think you should teach a class about it too. ;-)

          Sofya

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka HL Sofya la Rus, CW, CSH, uchenitsa Kramolnikova
          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Patricia Hefner
          Yeah. THL Isabelle de Foix Shire Brantestone Kingdom of Meridies  Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 11 6:12 PM
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            Yeah.
            THL Isabelle de Foix
            Shire Brantestone
            Kingdom of Meridies 
            Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.
            Martin Luther King




            ________________________________
            From: L.M. Kies <lkies@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:03:24 PM
            Subject: RE: [sig] Pechenegs [was Re: Digest Number 2786]



            >Well, this has been fun. How 'bout we all go to Ages of War as Pechenegs?? ;-)
            >
            >Susanna

            Works for me!

            I think you should teach a class about it too. ;-)

            Sofya

            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka HL Sofya la Rus, CW, CSH, uchenitsa Kramolnikova
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            http://www.strangel ove.net/~ kieser
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Suzanne
            No need for a class -- you all now know as much as I do on the subject! Susanna
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 27 5:27 PM
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              No need for a class -- you all now know as much as I do on the subject!

              Susanna


              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > >Well, this has been fun. How 'bout we all go to Ages of War as Pechenegs?? ;-)
              > >
              > >Susanna
              >
              > Works for me!
              >
              > I think you should teach a class about it too. ;-)
              >
              > Sofya
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka HL Sofya la Rus, CW, CSH, uchenitsa Kramolnikova
              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
              > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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