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FW: Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?

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  • L.M. Kies
    Forwarded from another List (see below). I will happily forward any information you can provide. Sofya ... Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus Mason City,
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 29, 2008
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      Forwarded from another List (see below). I will happily forward any information you can provide.

      Sofya

      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
      Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
      http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
      "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
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      ------- Original Message -------
      Subject : FW: [CALONTIR] Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?





      If any out there could help I'd appreciate it. I've tried looking up on the web, which form of "of"( as in "Billy-Bob of Prague") that I need to use for my Hussite alt persona.

      Any help is greatly appreciated

      Lief




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John Staeck
      I am not an expert, just been there, worked there, done a bit of research (much older than Hus era though).  Maybe this can help point you in a direction
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 29, 2008
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        I am not an expert, just been there, worked there, done a bit of research (much older than Hus' era though).� Maybe this can help point you in a direction where you will find a more definitive answer.� My understanding is this...

        The form that comes into being in the relatively modern era is the one that converts the place name at the end.� An example of this form of modification would be "Of the Hana valley"� becoming Hanak, e.g Miroslav Hanak.� Miroslav's daughter would be something like Maria Hanakova.� An example from Slovakia would convert "Of Belusa" (north of Trencin) into Beluscek, thought that spelling seems to vary.� Whether one converts to "cek" or the "ak" form seems variable and I have far too small a sample to hazard a guess (both Belusa and Hana end in "A" but one is definitely converted to "ak" (Hanak, see the athlete named Hanakova for example) while the other certainly was translated to "cek" (see the Beluscek family of Chicago as an example).�

        Surnames, even those derived form places, are not typically very old (this could be a record-keeping bias) and as late as WW2 people were still sometimes identified without them.� For example, a decorated WW2 flying hero in the Czech Republic is known by the last name of na Namest na Hana� (lierally "Of the place in the Hana Valley"; Namest na Hana is a town tracing its charter to the 12th century).� Older records, those dating to the Great Moravian era (ca 9th and early 10th century) rarely have place names that I have encountered, though these records are exclusively in non-Czech tongues (no written language) or the newly introduced Old Slavonic.

        You might have some luck following the linguistic resources.� A good place to start might be...

        http://www.library.uiuc.edu/spx/class/SubjectResources/SubSourCzech/lingcz.htm

        There is also a discussion of Czech naming practices in the background files of Wikipedia at... (most of this is on the diacritics and translation, though)

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Czech)

        Finally Google books may have something useful in a search of...�
        From Good King Wenceslas to the Good Soldier �vejk�By Andrew Lawrence Roberts


        Best of luck to you, I hope this helps you in some way.

        nay ex Janos









        --- On Fri, 8/29/08, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
        From: L.M. Kies <lkies@...>
        Subject: [sig] FW: Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 3:36 PM











        Forwarded from another List (see below). I will happily forward any information you can provide.



        Sofya



        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

        Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus

        Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir

        http://www.strangel ove.net/~ kieser

        "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"

        ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -



        ------- Original Message -------

        Subject : FW: [CALONTIR] Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?



        If any out there could help I'd appreciate it. I've tried looking up on the web, which form of "of"( as in "Billy-Bob of Prague") that I need to use for my Hussite alt persona.



        Any help is greatly appreciated



        Lief



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • L.M. Kies
        Greetings from Sofya. I ve found a tiny bit of information on period Czech locative bynames that indicates the usage of the form z
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 30, 2008
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          Greetings from Sofya.

          I've found a tiny bit of information on period Czech locative bynames that indicates
          the usage of the form "z <placename" and the adjectival form <place>-sky. The "na
          + <placename>" would be another possiblity, depending on the nature of the place
          being referenced.

          The original poster is asking for help finding a SCA-registerable period Czech locative
          byname, so he'll need solid documentation for any information we give him. I'm
          afraid I didn't find anything useful for this in the entertainingly heated Wikipedia_talk
          debate about whether Wikipedia should use Czech diacritical marks in English-language
          articles about Czech subjects. ;-)

          >------- Original Message ------
          >
          >I am not an expert, just been there, worked there, done a bit of research (much
          older than Hus' era though). Maybe this can help point you in a direction where
          you will find a more definitive answer. My understanding is this...

          The form that comes into being in the relatively modern era...

          Surnames, even those derived form places, are not typically very old (this could
          be a record-keeping bias)... For example, a decorated WW2 flying hero in the Czech
          Republic is known by the last name of na Namest na Hana (lierally "Of the place
          in the Hana Valley"; Namest na Hana is a town tracing its charter to the 12th century).
          Older records, those dating to the Great Moravian era (ca 9th and early 10th century)
          rarely have place names...

          You might have some luck following the linguistic resources. A good place to start
          might be...

          [http://www.library.uiuc.edu/spx/class/SubjectResources/SubSourCzech/lingcz.htm%5d
          http://www.library.uiuc.edu/spx/class/SubjectResources/SubSourCzech/lingcz.htm

          There is also a discussion of Czech naming practices in the background files of
          Wikipedia at... (most of this is on the diacritics and translation, though)

          [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Czech] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Czech
          )

          --- On Fri, 8/29/08, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
          Forwarded from another List (see below). I will happily forward any information
          you can provide.

          Sofya

          ------- Original Message -------

          Subject : FW: [CALONTIR] Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?



          If any out there could help I'd appreciate it. I've tried looking up on the web,
          which form of "of"( as in "Billy-Bob of Prague") that I need to use for my Hussite
          alt persona.


          Any help is greatly appreciated


          Lief


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lewis Tanzos
          ... http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/slavic.shtml Based on http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/kosice/ it is possible, even probable that they didn t use of
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 9, 2008
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            > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:
            > From: L.M. Kies <lkies@...>
            > Subject: [sig] FW: Any Czech linguists/heralds out there?
            > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 3:36 PM

            > If any out there could help I'd appreciate it. I've
            > tried looking up on the web, which form of "of"(
            > as in "Billy-Bob of Prague") that I need to use
            > for my Hussite alt persona.
            >
            > Any help is greatly appreciated

            http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/slavic.shtml

            Based on http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/kosice/ it is possible, even probable that they didn't use 'of' in names. Depends on where and when, and sometimes even whether or not you're noble. Sometimes, it even depends on which document you look at.

            For example - after 1400 in England, the prepositions disappeared. ( see http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/bynames/ )

            You probably want to talk to Walraven van Nijmegen, but I've lost track of what his current email address is. Perhaps ask the Academy of St. Gabriel? ( http://www.s-gabriel.org )

            - Istvan
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