Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re[2]: [sig] Interpretation of a source

Expand Messages
  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    I am afraid yes. Though may be some variations related to Byzanthian fashions, of which I have insufficient knowledge of. ... From: Sam W
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      I am afraid yes. Though may be some variations related to Byzanthian fashions, of which I have insufficient knowledge of.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "Sam W" <wootduosmaster@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:13:16 +1200
      Subject: Re: [sig] Interpretation of a source

      > I see. So a tall fur-out outward sloping hat is not-so-right for pre-mongol
      > Rus?
      >
      > ~Kotek
      >
      > 2008/7/15 Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>:
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Greetings!
      > >
      > > BTW, Sofya is a little not right. No Malkais at all; but a MALAKHAI /
      > > малахай is the Turkish (most common reference is to Bashkirian, actually)
      > > word for the special kind of winter hat, most common in Siberia (Bashkiria
      > > is the westernmost region they wear one) and, in a wider sense, throughout
      > > the steppe belt of Asia.
      > >
      > > http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?serverurl=www.expedition.com.ua&text=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9&stype=image
      > > http://sib.net/Chichikin/25.html
      > >
      > > They wore it Mongol-way, with laces tied at the back of the head. The
      > > borrowing was obviously made through the contacts with nomad unvaders,
      > > somewhere in between the Polovtsi and the Mongols (just like the Turkish cap
      > > Tahya/Toohiya, still remaining in the traditional Tatar, Chuvash etc wear,
      > > became the skull cap Taffia, mentioned for the 15 century Rus)
      > >
      > > Now getting closer the subject:
      > > Status symbol hats like the Boyar hats had fur facing outwards. Unlike fur
      > > coats that had it inwards.
      > >
      > > Hope that helps.
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: "Sam W" <wootduosmaster@...>
      > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:25:19 +1200
      > > Subject: [sig] Interpretation of a source
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Hi all,
      > > >
      > > > I have two questions regarding interpreting the following section of
      > > Sofya's
      > > > garb info site:
      > > >
      > > > Fur shapkas - treukh, malkaj, gorlatnaya shapka, cherev'i:
      > > > >>
      > > > >> The warm men's headdress was the fur shapka. Sources call it treukh
      > > or
      > > > >> malkaj - shapka-ushanka, just as for women. The most formal was the
      > > > >> gorlatnaya shapka which was made ofthe throat (gorlat) fur of rare
      > > animals.
      > > > >> It was tall, wideing upward, with a flat crown. Along with the
      > > gorlat hat is
      > > > >> recorded als the cherev'i, made from fur take from the belly of the
      > > animlal
      > > > >> (from http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html>)
      > > > >>
      > > > >>
      > > > How tall is tall? A foot? More? Less?
      > > >
      > > > As for the fur, is this facing inwards or outwards?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > >
      > > > ~Kotek
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Tim Nalley
      The hieght of the gorlatnaya shapka was determined by your status! For wear at events, I am a 5 10 man so mine is 11 so I can walk through the average
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        The hieght of the gorlatnaya shapka was determined by your status! For wear at events, I am a 5'10" man so mine is 11" so I can walk through the average American doorway without knocking it off of my head. Not historic but imminently practicle, as Russians tend to be from my observations and acquantence.

        As for fur, I can not afford enough neck fur from sables to make a historically accurate artifact. Strangely enough, thanks to eBay, I could afford a silver fox jacket for my Mark IV version, currently nearly completion. I wanted a bushy hat as depicted in period drawings I have attached to this message, all of which appear to have the fur nape pointing up.

        Rus6 is OPP, but RA1003 & RusA1004 are dated 1604 in Warsaw and the figures in RusA1007 are from Veceillo, aka 293 woodcuts from the Rennaisance, Dover Publishing. Drawings have their well known problems, but in the absence of actual historical artifacts....

        I have a question for the group: because there are pine martines and sable in Russia, does that mean there are also animals called Fishers, a natural predator of pine martin as well? I only ask because I've heard "brown fox" mentioned, and fishers definitely resemble what could be called "brown fox".

        Best Regards,
        'dok
        "Dreams are only the realities of yesterday waiting to happen"


        --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Sam W <wootduosmaster@...> wrote:

        > From: Sam W <wootduosmaster@...>
        > Subject: Re: [sig] Interpretation of a source
        > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 6:13 AM
        > I see. So a tall fur-out outward sloping hat is not-so-right
        > for pre-mongol
        > Rus?
        >
        > ~Kotek
        >
        > 2008/7/15 Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        > <Posadnik@...>:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Greetings!
        > >
        > > BTW, Sofya is a little not right. No Malkais at all;
        > but a MALAKHAI /
        > > ������� is the Turkish (most common reference
        > is to Bashkirian, actually)
        > > word for the special kind of winter hat, most common
        > in Siberia (Bashkiria
        > > is the westernmost region they wear one) and, in a
        > wider sense, throughout
        > > the steppe belt of Asia.
        > >
        > >
        > http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?serverurl=www.expedition.com.ua&text=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9&stype=image
        > > http://sib.net/Chichikin/25.html
        > >
        > > They wore it Mongol-way, with laces tied at the back
        > of the head. The
        > > borrowing was obviously made through the contacts with
        > nomad unvaders,
        > > somewhere in between the Polovtsi and the Mongols
        > (just like the Turkish cap
        > > Tahya/Toohiya, still remaining in the traditional
        > Tatar, Chuvash etc wear,
        > > became the skull cap Taffia, mentioned for the 15
        > century Rus)
        > >
        > > Now getting closer the subject:
        > > Status symbol hats like the Boyar hats had fur facing
        > outwards. Unlike fur
        > > coats that had it inwards.
        > >
        > > Hope that helps.
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: "Sam W"
        > <wootduosmaster@...>
        > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:25:19 +1200
        > > Subject: [sig] Interpretation of a source
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi all,
        > > >
        > > > I have two questions regarding interpreting the
        > following section of
        > > Sofya's
        > > > garb info site:
        > > >
        > > > Fur shapkas - treukh, malkaj, gorlatnaya shapka,
        > cherev'i:
        > > > >>
        > > > >> The warm men's headdress was the
        > fur shapka. Sources call it treukh
        > > or
        > > > >> malkaj - shapka-ushanka, just as for
        > women. The most formal was the
        > > > >> gorlatnaya shapka which was made
        > ofthe throat (gorlat) fur of rare
        > > animals.
        > > > >> It was tall, wideing upward, with a
        > flat crown. Along with the
        > > gorlat hat is
        > > > >> recorded als the cherev'i, made
        > from fur take from the belly of the
        > > animlal
        > > > >> (from
        > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html>)
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > How tall is tall? A foot? More? Less?
        > > >
        > > > As for the fur, is this facing inwards or
        > outwards?
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thanks,
        > > >
        > > > ~Kotek
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim Nalley
        Actually, maybe a unique Russian adaptation to a fashion also seen in various guises in Byzantium, Persia and with the Ottomans. Neck fur would be conspicious
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Actually, maybe a unique Russian adaptation to a fashion also seen in various guises in Byzantium, Persia and with the Ottomans. Neck fur would be conspicious consumption!

          Alexey, could you explain more about:
          > > > Tahya/Toohiya, still remaining in the traditional
          > Tatar, Chuvash etc wear,
          > > > became the skull cap Taffia, mentioned for the 15
          > century Rus)
          I sure would appreciate your commentary and time!

          Best Regards,
          'dok
          "Dreams are only the realities of yesterday waiting to happen"


          --- On Tue, 7/15/08, Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...> wrote:

          > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
          > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] Interpretation of a source
          > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 2008, 9:27 AM
          > I am afraid yes. Though may be some variations related to
          > Byzanthian fashions, of which I have insufficient knowledge
          > of.
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: "Sam W" <wootduosmaster@...>
          > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:13:16 +1200
          > Subject: Re: [sig] Interpretation of a source
          >
          > > I see. So a tall fur-out outward sloping hat is
          > not-so-right for pre-mongol
          > > Rus?
          > >
          > > ~Kotek
          > >
          > > 2008/7/15 Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          > <Posadnik@...>:
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Greetings!
          > > >
          > > > BTW, Sofya is a little not right. No Malkais at
          > all; but a MALAKHAI /
          > > > малахай is the Turkish (most common
          > reference is to Bashkirian, actually)
          > > > word for the special kind of winter hat, most
          > common in Siberia (Bashkiria
          > > > is the westernmost region they wear one) and, in
          > a wider sense, throughout
          > > > the steppe belt of Asia.
          > > >
          > > >
          > http://images.yandex.ru/yandsearch?serverurl=www.expedition.com.ua&text=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B9&stype=image
          > > > http://sib.net/Chichikin/25.html
          > > >
          > > > They wore it Mongol-way, with laces tied at the
          > back of the head. The
          > > > borrowing was obviously made through the contacts
          > with nomad unvaders,
          > > > somewhere in between the Polovtsi and the Mongols
          > (just like the Turkish cap
          > > > Tahya/Toohiya, still remaining in the traditional
          > Tatar, Chuvash etc wear,
          > > > became the skull cap Taffia, mentioned for the 15
          > century Rus)
          > > >
          > > > Now getting closer the subject:
          > > > Status symbol hats like the Boyar hats had fur
          > facing outwards. Unlike fur
          > > > coats that had it inwards.
          > > >
          > > > Hope that helps.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: "Sam W"
          > <wootduosmaster@...>
          > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:25:19 +1200
          > > > Subject: [sig] Interpretation of a source
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Hi all,
          > > > >
          > > > > I have two questions regarding interpreting
          > the following section of
          > > > Sofya's
          > > > > garb info site:
          > > > >
          > > > > Fur shapkas - treukh, malkaj, gorlatnaya
          > shapka, cherev'i:
          > > > > >>
          > > > > >> The warm men's headdress was
          > the fur shapka. Sources call it treukh
          > > > or
          > > > > >> malkaj - shapka-ushanka, just as
          > for women. The most formal was the
          > > > > >> gorlatnaya shapka which was made
          > ofthe throat (gorlat) fur of rare
          > > > animals.
          > > > > >> It was tall, wideing upward,
          > with a flat crown. Along with the
          > > > gorlat hat is
          > > > > >> recorded als the cherev'i,
          > made from fur take from the belly of the
          > > > animlal
          > > > > >> (from
          > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/KMChairacc.html>)
          > > > > >>
          > > > > >>
          > > > > How tall is tall? A foot? More? Less?
          > > > >
          > > > > As for the fur, is this facing inwards or
          > outwards?
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks,
          > > > >
          > > > > ~Kotek
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • L.M. Kies
          Greetings from Sofya to Kotek. Indeed. The fabulous gorlat hat is inappropriate for Kievan period Rus. There should have been a footnote to indicate that the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Greetings from Sofya to Kotek.

            Indeed. The fabulous gorlat hat is inappropriate for Kievan period Rus. There should have been a
            footnote to indicate that the paragraph was translated from Rabinovich's chapter on 13th-17th
            century clothing.

            Some illustrations here courtesy of Mordak (load slowly):
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus1.pdf
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus2.pdf
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus3.pdf

            You had the misfortune to find a particularly poorly written section of my webpage and I apologize.

            Alexey is correct. It should be malakhai, not malkai. Just like it should be "widening",
            not "wideing"... "also" not "als"... "animal" not "animlal"... and there should have been a
            footnote as noted above. *sigh* I guess that's what happens when typing a 70-page-section of a
            book (while simultaneously translating/transliterating) with only a semester of high-school typing
            class.

            I will fix it tonight. And if you find any other such problems, I'd be grateful if you pointed
            them out.

            At your service,

            Sofya

            --------------------------------------------------------------------
            Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
            Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
            http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
            "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
            --------------------------------------------------------------------
          • Robert Jimmerson
            Look baby cool stuff from period! ... -- Robert Jimmerson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Look baby cool stuff from period!

              On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 12:30 PM, L.M. Kies <lkies@...> wrote:

              > Greetings from Sofya to Kotek.
              >
              > Indeed. The fabulous gorlat hat is inappropriate for Kievan period Rus.
              > There should have been a
              > footnote to indicate that the paragraph was translated from Rabinovich's
              > chapter on 13th-17th
              > century clothing.
              >
              > Some illustrations here courtesy of Mordak (load slowly):
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus1.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus1.pdf>
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus2.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus2.pdf>
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus3.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus3.pdf>
              >
              > You had the misfortune to find a particularly poorly written section of my
              > webpage and I apologize.
              >
              > Alexey is correct. It should be malakhai, not malkai. Just like it should
              > be "widening",
              > not "wideing"... "also" not "als"... "animal" not "animlal"... and there
              > should have been a
              > footnote as noted above. *sigh* I guess that's what happens when typing a
              > 70-page-section of a
              > book (while simultaneously translating/transliterating) with only a
              > semester of high-school typing
              > class.
              >
              > I will fix it tonight. And if you find any other such problems, I'd be
              > grateful if you pointed
              > them out.
              >
              > At your service,
              >
              > Sofya
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
              > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >



              --
              Robert Jimmerson


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sam W
              No problemo at all, your site is a wonderful resource for those of us who don t have books or speak Russian :D ~Kotek ... [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                No problemo at all, your site is a wonderful resource for those of us who
                don't have books or speak Russian :D

                ~Kotek

                2008/7/16 L.M. Kies <lkies@...>:

                > Greetings from Sofya to Kotek.
                >
                > Indeed. The fabulous gorlat hat is inappropriate for Kievan period Rus.
                > There should have been a
                > footnote to indicate that the paragraph was translated from Rabinovich's
                > chapter on 13th-17th
                > century clothing.
                >
                > Some illustrations here courtesy of Mordak (load slowly):
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus1.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus1.pdf>
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus2.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus2.pdf>
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus3.pdf<http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser/Russia/Mordak/mordakillus3.pdf>
                >
                > You had the misfortune to find a particularly poorly written section of my
                > webpage and I apologize.
                >
                > Alexey is correct. It should be malakhai, not malkai. Just like it should
                > be "widening",
                > not "wideing"... "also" not "als"... "animal" not "animlal"... and there
                > should have been a
                > footnote as noted above. *sigh* I guess that's what happens when typing a
                > 70-page-section of a
                > book (while simultaneously translating/transliterating) with only a
                > semester of high-school typing
                > class.
                >
                > I will fix it tonight. And if you find any other such problems, I'd be
                > grateful if you pointed
                > them out.
                >
                > At your service,
                >
                > Sofya
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                >
                > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser <http://www.strangelove.net/%7Ekieser>
                > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • L.M. Kies
                ... While that s an intriguing thought, a quick search of the internet indicates that the fisher (one of my favorite mammals) is exclusively a North American
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 15, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  >------- Original Message -------
                  >From : Tim Nalley[mailto:mordakus@...]
                  >
                  >I have a question for the group: because there are pine martines and sable in Russia, does that mean there are also animals called ?>Fishers, a natural predator of pine martin as well? I only ask because I've heard "brown fox" mentioned, and fishers definitely >resemble what could be called "brown fox".

                  While that's an intriguing thought, a quick search of the internet indicates that the fisher (one of my favorite mammals) is exclusively a North American species.

                  http://www.funet.fi/pub/sci/bio/life/mammalia/carnivora/mustelidae/martes/index.
                  http://www.answers.com/topic/fisher

                  I don't know if there's a Russian equivalent of this critter. Maybe the beech marten?
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech_Marten

                  Or the pine marten, although he's a little small? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_Marten

                  Sofya

                  --------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                  Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                  http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                  "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.