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Re: [sig] Digest Number 2617

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  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
    My apologies
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 20, 2008
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      <<On 19 Jun 2008 08:31:31 -0000, Istvan lewistanzos@... wrote:

      I was most careful in what I wrote, and you have apparently misunderstood.>>

      My apologies if I did. :)

      <<I've seen your form and hers within ten seconds of each other. I would say
      "reminiscent of" not "almost exactly like".>>

      I think I was unclear here. The final one I submitted, or the first one? I
      was referencing my first try in my earlier email. The second image I sent in
      was drawn and sent simply to get something passed. I then took artistic
      license with it so it looked like I wanted, rather than a strict heraldic
      interpretation. You can see it here -
      http://www.plcommonwealth.org/zygmunt2.jpg

      <<> Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of Heralds
      > *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than having
      > the perception of being hyper-critical.


      I do want to pass your device. I would absolutely love if every single
      device that came to me for consideration would pass. This is the case for
      every single one of my predecessors that I have met, and I know all of them
      back to 1986.>>

      Just a point of clarification - my device has already passed. I was trying
      to communicate the frustration I have heard, and continue to hear, from
      people submitting heraldry to Kingdom and repeatedly having their devices
      fail (for whatever reason). What can be done to help cut down on this
      frustration in general, and in particular those of us who are trying to make
      heraldry from non-Anglo/French cultures fit into the SCA's Anglo-French-ish
      conventions?

      Upon re-reading my original letter, and your response, it might seem like I
      was making a personal attack. I wasn't. I apologize if I caused any hard
      feelings. :)

      --
      Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
      pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
      tabard." - D. Sebastian
      "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
      deserves."
      Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
      SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


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    • Lewis Tanzos
      ... Ah! This is a perfect example of my one earlier statement. I hadn t seen that before just now. Apparently, that one was returned at kingdom. We only
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 20, 2008
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        --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
        > <<On 19 Jun 2008 08:31:31 -0000, Istvan lewistanzos@ yahoo.com wrote:
        > <<I've seen your form and hers within ten seconds of each other. I would
        > say "reminiscent of" not "almost exactly like".>>
        > I think I was unclear here. The final one I submitted, or the first one?
        > I was referencing my first try in my earlier email. The second image I
        > sent in was drawn and sent simply to get something passed. I then took
        > artistic license with it so it looked like I wanted, rather than a
        > strict heraldic interpretation. You can see it here -
        > http://www.plcommon wealth.org/ zygmunt2. jpg

        Ah! This is a perfect example of my one earlier statement. I hadn't seen that before just now. Apparently, that one was returned at kingdom. We only see at the SCA-wide level what the kingdoms choose to send us, so the older one never made it.

        > <<> Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of
        > Heralds *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than
        > having the perception of being hyper-critical.

        The issue may be the difference between your College of Heralds - which is your kingdom people - and the College of Arms - which is the worldwide, SCA-level group.

        Sadly, many of the kingdom Colleges of Heralds are not particularly good, and return things they shouldn't. I know I did it when I was a kingdom submissions herald -- I've seen the stuff, and I know better, now. This is why anyone can always appeal a heraldic decision. Appeals of kingdom decisions go to either Pelican or Wreath herald (the SCA-wide decision making positions), appeals of that level go to Laurel Sovereign of Arms (the admin, corporate officer position), appeals of Laurel's decisions go to the Board of Directors.

        And, of course, I'm talking in purely theoretical terms here -- I don't know why your kingdom decided things the way it did.

        > Just a point of clarification - my device has already passed.

        I did know that.

        > I was
        > trying to communicate the frustration I have heard, and continue to
        > hear, from people submitting heraldry to Kingdom and repeatedly having
        > their devices fail (for whatever reason). What can be done to help cut
        > down on this frustration in general, and in particular those of us who
        > are trying to make heraldry from non-Anglo/French cultures fit into the
        > SCA's Anglo-French-ish conventions?

        Please be aware that the frustration goes both ways. All too often, people don't want to actually pick a medieval name, they want the name fairy to wave their magic wand and make their made-up or fantasy fiction or documentably post-period name (as an example "Wedny" was invented for Peter Pan) into something period. Other times something gets returned, and ten years later we hear about how horrible the heralds are because ... and the "reason it was returned" that they're all pissed off about has nothing to do with why their submission was actually returned. It's pertty hard to tell the "didn't send enough documentation" or "trying to do something non-standard" types from these types.

        The answer on how to make it work better, of course, is education, communication, and the willingness to *be* educated. I'm talking both about heralds educating clients and themselves about how to work with the process, and about clients educating heralds about names and armory from outside core European countries.

        > Upon re-reading my original letter, and your response, it might seem
        > like I was making a personal attack. I wasn't. I apologize if I caused
        > any hard feelings. :)

        I didn't interpret it that way, so there's no need to apologize. I hope my letter didn't come across as anything personal either, and if so, I apologize myself.

        - Istvan
      • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
        I was trying ... from ... devices ... this ... trying to make ... French-ish ... Ok, for the record, I don t think heralds are evil for not passing my device.
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 21, 2008
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          I was trying
          > to communicate the frustration I have heard, and continue to hear,
          from
          > people submitting heraldry to Kingdom and repeatedly having their
          devices
          > fail (for whatever reason). What can be done to help cut down on
          this
          > frustration in general, and in particular those of us who are
          trying to make
          > heraldry from non-Anglo/French cultures fit into the SCA's Anglo-
          French-ish
          > conventions?

          Ok, for the record, I don't think heralds are evil for not passing my
          device. I think the internet is evil for not making the documentation
          I want findable. If I want to lay blame on more generations, I could
          blame my grandmother for being a bossy bum who wouldn't allow my
          grandfather to teach their kids Polish. If my dad spoke Polish, he'd
          have taught me!

          My answer to the above question is to wonder if there are lists of
          acceptable charges to use. It would be nice if we could look up a
          page of SCA acceptable heraldic crosses, for example. It would be
          extra nice if the page had a section of crosses that have been
          returned and what one would need to supply in the way of
          documentation to get them passed, and a list of those that are post
          period so don't even bother trying. You know, if you want an easily
          documentable name, go and pick something of St Gabriel's site. It'd
          be very helpful if people could cut and paste (so to speak) charges
          to create a device, and would be less mucking around with
          documentation for everyone. If there is something like this, it needs
          to be more widely advertised!!
          :)
          Rosie
        • Frank Douglas
          I have been a herald in the past, I have been in for over 26 years, and I have never tried to pass my name or device. for two reasons. First I like the history
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 21, 2008
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            I have been a herald in the past, I have been in for over 26 years, and I have never tried to pass my name or device.

            for two reasons. First I like the history of so many cultures, that my persona has not stuck for long. (Saxon, Norse, Dane, Irish, Tibetan, roman, now and most likely forever Transylvania Saxon). Second some of the persona's have , culturally, very different views of heraldry than England or France.

            When I meet up with someone who is frustrated I point out that if they have done there research , both SCA and heraldry for their persona they can usually find any problem them selves.

            And most important, just as your focus in the SCA may be fighting or A&S and you what to play at your highest level, so do the heralds and that is there focus. They do a great job and in your frustration are you trying to take their focus away.

            I get frustrated when a non fighter who just watched star wars tries to show me how to use a light saber. and I am sure heralds get frustrated with someone that just saw a "draw the turtle" art class in the back of a magazine telling them how cool something would look.


            Gyula, Wiktor Kostka
            Squire to Sir Emyrs Shaunnon
            Member of the Black Gryphon
            Premier Pup of the Amazon Household



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