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Re: Hello Nice Herald People

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  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
    The cross
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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      <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever those
      cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.

      - Istvan>>

      The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica" (pronounced
      'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry and
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
      However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have a
      cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't know
      what they'll do for the Lekawica.
      --
      Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
      pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
      tabard." - D. Sebastian
      "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
      deserves."
      Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
      SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lewis Tanzos
      ... The College of Arms doesn t tend to use specialist terms from languages other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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        --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
        >> <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever
        >> those cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.
        >> - Istvan>>
        >
        >The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica"
        >(pronounced 'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry
        >and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
        >
        >However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have >a cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't >know what they'll do for the Lekawica.

        The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be blazoned in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of weird specialist terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better. Heralds have to be able to conflict check against it, scribes have to be able to understand what they're supposed to draw.

        Prove (with dates!) that the thing you submit was used in period heraldry and you will definitely get it under some name -- and isn't the picture more important than what it's called?

        You may want to look at the following book for help:

        Herby rycerstwa polskiego / [uklad opracowal Jerzy Wislocki ; wyboru
        tekstów dokonali Ryszard Marciniak, Stanislaw Potocki, Jerzy Wislocki].

        Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings, which have a history of being incorrect. Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation images.

        - Istvan
      • jjbober4@comcast.net
        Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w Kórniku (Biblioteka Kórnicka, Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988) Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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          Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w K�rniku (Biblioteka K�rnicka, Polskiej Akademii Nauk, K�rnik 1988)

          Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history associated with each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish.

          Jan
          -------------- Original message ----------------------
          From: Lewis Tanzos <lewistanzos@...>
          > --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
          > >> <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever
          > >> those cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.
          > >> - Istvan>>
          > >
          > >The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica"
          > >(pronounced 'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry
          > >and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
          > >
          > >However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have >a
          > cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't >know what
          > they'll do for the Lekawica.
          >
          > The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages other
          > than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be blazoned
          > in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of weird specialist
          > terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better. Heralds have to be
          > able to conflict check against it, scribes have to be able to understand what
          > they're supposed to draw.
          >
          > Prove (with dates!) that the thing you submit was used in period heraldry and
          > you will definitely get it under some name -- and isn't the picture more
          > important than what it's called?
          >
          > You may want to look at the following book for help:
          >
          > Herby rycerstwa polskiego / [uklad opracowal Jerzy Wislocki ; wyboru
          > tekst�w dokonali Ryszard Marciniak, Stanislaw Potocki, Jerzy Wislocki].
          >
          > Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided to
          > Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings, which
          > have a history of being incorrect. Also, what you drew isn't quite what was
          > shown in the documentation images.
          >
          > - Istvan
          >
          >
          >
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
          ... I have a theory from looking at various depictions of West Slavic heraldry, that this is exactly what happened in period-- standard charges got blazoned in
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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            > The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages
            > other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must
            > be blazoned in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of
            > weird specialist terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better.

            I have a theory from looking at various depictions of West Slavic
            heraldry, that this is exactly what happened in period-- standard charges
            got blazoned in heraldic language and redrawn, and so on. As a result you
            get horseshoes with crosses inside them or arrows attached to them, etc.

            Here's a couple of interesting articles on the subject, though I think
            none of them are acceptable docs for Laurel:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry

            Polish Nobility and Its Heraldry: An Introduction
            by Piotr Pawel Bajer http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

            excerpts from "Herbarz Polski" by Kasper Niesiecki, S.J., Lipsk (Leipzig)
            edition, 1839-1846. http://www.pgsa.org/Hearldry/herbarzP.htm

            Herbarz Polski index: http://www.polishroots.org/herbarz/herbarz_index.htm

            http://akromer.republika.pl/herby_szlach.html

            I just dug up my old page from the Polish knowledge site here, via the
            Internet Archive.

            Something about Polish Heraldry

            Polish heraldry tends to make most SCA (and for that matter, mundane)
            heralds want a very cold, very strong drink and a quiet lie-down
            somewhere, preferably with a wet cloth on their foreheads and a copy of
            Fox-Davies.

            Basically, the trouble with Polish heraldry is that in some significant
            ways it doesn't LOOK like or ACT like Norman English/French heraldry. Ok,
            from a distance, it might-- eighteenth and nineteenth century Polish
            heraldry has quarterings, and funny crests, and all. However, once you
            start looking at medieval Polish heraldry, you notice oddities.

            First of all, it's not terribly blazonable. The language of blazon relies
            on a certain number of field descriptions, plus a lot of objects stuck on
            those fields in various ways. As a general rule, once you've got those
            down you can describe a coat pretty easily. Polish heraldry, though, uses
            strange objects, ones that look like they started out life as arrows, or
            circles, or lines, and then changed their minds several times. The older
            the depiction you're looking at, the wierder it looks, and the less like
            anything you can describe in blazon. The later depictions of the same coat
            show things that are more recognizable, but it's easy to see that this is
            a result of having French heralds trying to describe, and then draw from
            the description, this wierd heraldry.

            Secondly, there's not enough of it, and it's not unique. You find families
            all over the place listed as having exactly the same coat of arms. This is
            the sort of thing that makes Norman Britons develop insomina, twitches,
            and finally import asassins. It's not DONE.

            Thirdly, it's got names. Not like 'Richard the Third's arms'. No. It's
            wierd names. Rawicz. Lis. Javel. And these names show up in history books
            as what look like surnames or family names, but turn out not to be.

            What's going on here? Well, to begin with, Polish heraldry is based on the
            'clan' or 'herb' system. In addition to being part of a family, every
            noble-born person (member of the szlachta) was part of a clan. Clan
            membership seems to have run more or less in families, but people from
            different regions were in the same clan, and there's no specific way to
            guess who is in which clan. Polish historians aren't quite sure where
            these came from, but then again, they aren't quite sure where the Polish
            nobility came from. The most common hypothesis is that the warriors of the
            Slavic tribes became the szlachta, and their fighting groups became the
            clans. This is borne out by the fact that each clan or herb had their own
            insignia and a war-cry to go with it.

            By the late middle ages, we have about 300 of these insignia associated
            with clans. Some have simple, wierd symbols; some of them have animal
            bits, or whole animals used in a very stylized way. Some appear to be
            combinations of others or developments of other coats, and Polish heraldic
            legend claims that they are, but since these legends appear to have been
            written down in the 18th-19th centuries, their origins are suspect.

            The heraldic theory is that these devices are the analogues of the German
            'hausmarken', sort of like cattle brands. They think that someone from the
            tourney circuit came along and introduced the Poles to the idea of
            heraldry, which the Poles thought was a pretty good idea. So, having had
            heraldry described to them, they hit upon the idea of using the insignia
            as heraldic devices. It's very easy to imagine the horror of the French
            heralds encountering this concept, but clearly the Poles prevailed.

            A Page of Clan Herby
            http://web.archive.org/web/20070225080748/http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6993/herby.htm

            The practical upshot is that pure Polish heraldry is simply a matter of
            figuring out what clan one belongs to and using that device. However, it's
            also possible to create Polish style heraldry.

            Generalizations are dangerous, but here are a few. Polish heraldry, as a
            general rule, uses insignia in a metal on a color. These insignia are
            generally joined elements, as in a badge, laid directly on a background.
            This means that sometimes one does violate the 'slot machine' rule. It is
            my opinion that colors were not that important in depictions of the
            charges, though the combinations are generally or and gules, or argent and
            azure. In some cases, specifically those with a raven as a secondary
            charge, you will see a raven proper on a colored background. Field
            divisions, which are rare, are generally either vertical or horizontal.
            Arrow and horsehoe shapes are common, as is the W shape...
            --
            -- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
            jenne@...
          • Jeanne
            I am going to Pennsic for the first time, and can t recall if there is a Slavic gathering there?     Jeanne
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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              I am going to Pennsic for the first time, and can't recall if there is a Slavic gathering there?
               
               
              Jeanne



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
              ... Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988) ... each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish. ... I do have a very pretty Polish heraldry book sitting
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                > Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w Kórniku (Biblioteka Kórnicka,
                Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988)
                >
                > Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history associated with
                each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish.
                >
                > Jan

                I do have a very pretty Polish heraldry book sitting right here. It
                is in Polish, which is a minor problem. The real problem about
                submitting it with the charges proper names is that I can't find any
                extant examples of the Leckawika being drawn the way I want it.
                Everything Asfridhr has kindly dug out for me shows it more like
                a "W" whereas the way I've drawn it is supposed to be a 15th century
                representation. I just can't find a primary source for that. The
                other is that I can't find any extant pics of Cross Osmorogs at all.
                They are in my nice and pretty book, but the author only says that he
                uses predominantly 15th century artwork. Naturally the text is
                footnoted, but the artwork isn't as he's redrawn it. I think I'll
                take the advice and submit it with the best I can do, and resubmit in
                the future if I ever collect herald impressing documentation. :)
                Is there a list of College approved crosses? A cross milrine looks
                closest (http://www.theweebsite.com/heraldry/charges_crosses.html -
                fourth row on the end.)
                Thanks guys,
                Rosie
              • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  <<Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided
                  to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings,
                  which have a history of being incorrect.>>

                  Dunno. The stuff I have was dated in the late 1300's, which was what you
                  saw. I have other documentation I *could* have submitted, but I thought what
                  I provided was sufficient.

                  <<Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation
                  images.

                  - Istvan>>
                  Which was why I re-drew it. It looked almost exactly like what Nawojka has
                  on her device.

                  Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of Heralds
                  *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than having the
                  perception of being hyper-critical.

                  YMMV. :)
                  --
                  Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                  "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
                  pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
                  tabard." - D. Sebastian
                  "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
                  deserves."
                  Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                  SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lewis Tanzos
                  ... I was most careful in what I wrote, and you have apparently misunderstood. You submitted some papers to your kingdom. It may very well have been wonderful
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                    --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
                    > > <<Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was
                    > > provided to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period
                    > > re-drawings, which have a history of being incorrect.>>

                    > Dunno. The stuff I have was dated in the late 1300's, which was what you
                    > saw. I have other documentation I *could* have submitted, but I thought > what I provided was sufficient.

                    I was most careful in what I wrote, and you have apparently misunderstood.

                    You submitted some papers to your kingdom. It may very well have been wonderful documentation with dates. I have no idea if I've seen it. I definitely have seen what was sent to Laurel by your kingdom - I wrote to the file clerk and asked her to send me the contents of your file. Because of my heraldic position, she was willing to do this.

                    The papers that were sent to Laurel said nothing that I could decipher as saying the images were dated to the 1300s. There were some very nice numbers that look like dates ... but I don't read Latin or Polish and there does not seem to have been a translation provided -- which is required for non-English documentation.

                    ...there's still the issue that the pictures that are shown in that documentation are obviously not from the 1300s. They are modern re-drawings, which means they're unreliable. (One looks Victorian, which is even worse)

                    > > <<Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation
                    > > images.
                    > Which was why I re-drew it. It looked almost exactly like what Nawojka
                    > has on her device.

                    I've seen your form and hers within ten seconds of each other. I would say "reminiscent of" not "almost exactly like".

                    > Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of Heralds
                    > *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than having
                    > the perception of being hyper-critical.

                    Starting next month, for three years, I will be the person deciding on armory for the SCA. Once your stuff gets out of your kingdom, the buck will be stopping with me. If it doesn't get out of kingdom, I won't even see it.

                    I do want to pass your device. I would absolutely love if every single device that came to me for consideration would pass. This is the case for every single one of my predecessors that I have met, and I know all of them back to 1986.

                    I will have roughly eight hours a month to consider 150 items - one item every three minutes or so. Make it easy on me. Prove to me that what you want to do is period heraldry, using documentation that includes dates I can trust, with pictures or drawings actually done in period -- not a date you write, not a date that the author of the book made up, not a picture or drawing of something done after 1600. Avoid conflict with other registered devices in the SCA. Do this and I will pass your device.

                    Make it righteous period heraldry, and I'll even *like* passing it.

                    > YMMV. :)

                    It certainly does.

                    - Istvan
                  • Sfandra
                    ... ... ... Oh lordy lord. I don t know whether to say Congrats or My Condolences... ;) Having played the Herald game, I have to say, it s odd
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                      --- Lewis Tanzos <lewistanzos@...> wrote:
                      <SNIP>
                      > Starting next month, for three years, I will be the
                      > person deciding on armory for the SCA.
                      <SNIP>
                      >
                      > - Istvan

                      Oh lordy lord. I don't know whether to say Congrats
                      or My Condolences... ;)

                      Having played the Herald game, I have to say, it's odd
                      that one of the most period things we do (using
                      heraldry) is one of the most hated positions in the
                      Society.

                      But....in honor of your sacrifice/willingness, I will
                      now get off my duff and actually SUBMIT the device
                      I've been using for years.... (and yes, I conflict
                      check it every couple of months, just to make sure I
                      can keep using it) ;)

                      --Sfandra
                      --heraldry geek, unwarranted....



                      ******************
                      Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                      KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                      Haus Von Drakenklaue
                      Kingdom of the East
                      ******************
                      Never 'pearl' your butt.
                    • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                      I m going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to call the charges! Will cross milrine and two conjoined books without pages do? Our
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                        I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                        call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                        pages" do?
                        Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                        questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                        I'll be to anyone!!
                        :)
                        Nawojka
                      • Patricia Hefner
                        I wish I could help you but I m not a herald. THL Isabelle de Foix Shire Brantestone Kingdom of Meridies  Support your friendly local autistics...........I m
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                          I wish I could help you but I'm not a herald.
                          THL Isabelle de Foix
                          Shire Brantestone
                          Kingdom of Meridies
                           Support your friendly local autistics...........I'm one of them.



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:51:16 PM
                          Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People


                          I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                          call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                          pages" do?
                          Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                          questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                          I'll be to anyone!!
                          :)
                          Nawojka

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lewis Tanzos
                          ... From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People To: sig@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:51 PM
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                            --- On Thu, 6/19/08, Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                            From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                            Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:51 PM

                            > I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                            > call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                            > pages" do?

                            Theoretically, you don't have to provide a blazon, but your kingdom might get pissy about that. Tell 'em what you know about the charges in period Poland, and call 'em what you want to. Heralds register the picture. The words are changed as needed.

                            > Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                            > questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                            > I'll be to anyone!!

                            We all start somewhere.

                            - Istvan
                          • quokkaqueen
                            Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at least have a shot at have a look at this period manuscript and see what you say. For the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 20, 2008
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                              Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at
                              least have a shot at 'have a look at this period manuscript and see
                              what you say.'

                              For the Abdank/Lekawica/W-thing, there is:
                              Jan Długosz: Catalogus archiepiscoporum Gnesnensium ; Vitae
                              episcoporum Cracoviensium. Latin. 1531-1535.

                              There's a short English description here:
                              http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/collectiondescription2?dirids=16
                              And the manuscript is here:
                              http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/doccontent2?id=63&from=editionindex&from=-3search&dirids=16

                              On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                              text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                              in use before 1600.

                              My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                              charges existence before 1600? If not, why not? (Assuming that there
                              was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                              different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                              pretty picture.)

                              I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,
                              especially since Rosie has been working on this for a very long time.
                              ~Asfridhr

                              *Rosemary Pinches and Anthony Wood (editors), A European Armorial— An
                              Armorial of the Knights of the Golden Fleece and 15th Century Europe
                              from a Contemporary Manuscript — With an Introduction to Polish
                              Heraldry by Bernard J. Klec-Pilewski, London, 1991

                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                              <<snip>>
                              > I'm pretty sure the W thing is in the PicDic already.
                              > I know I've seen it somewhere....
                              >
                              > The cross thingies can always be blazoned as some
                              > existing form of cross, but DRAWN however you want....
                              > Then down the road, you resubmit once the College
                              > acknowledges the polish elements properly.
                              >
                              > --Sfandra
                              >
                              >
                              > ******************
                              > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                              > KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                              > Haus Von Drakenklaue
                              > Kingdom of the East
                              > ******************
                              > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                              >
                            • Lewis Tanzos
                              ... It most certainly does. Looks like it s used in heraldry, too. ... It s a book made before 1600 and it includes the charge in a heraldic context. By our
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                --- On Fri, 6/20/08, quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                > Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at
                                > least have a shot at 'have a look at this period manuscript and see
                                > what you say.'

                                > On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                                > text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                                > in use before 1600.

                                It most certainly does. Looks like it's used in heraldry, too.

                                > My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                                > charges existence before 1600? If not, why not?

                                It's a book made before 1600 and it includes the charge in a heraldic context. By our rules, we nearly *have* to allow it, we just have to figure out what to call it (and that's our worry, not yours). The exception is if the guy was doodling art in heraldic contexts -- and it doesn't look like this book is doing that.

                                Realize that since it looks like a letter "W", it's going to be conflict check against letters.

                                Make sure you include copies of those pages, the title page, and the description in the submission.

                                > (Assuming that there
                                > was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                                > different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                                > pretty picture.)

                                Please include that as well, yes.

                                > I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,

                                I'm treading a very thin line here. Since I'm the final arbiter, I'm not allowed to give public opinions on this sort of thing until I'm actually ruling on the submission -- somebody might turn up other evidence that counteracts what looks like otherwise good documentation.

                                That being said, and realizing that my final decision will depend on what else the College of Arms might come up with - for or against, what you have here does look pretty conclusive for the leckiwicka ... under some name.

                                - Istvan
                              • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                                ... might get pissy about that. Tell em what you know about the charges in period Poland, and call em what you want to. Heralds register the picture. The
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 21, 2008
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                                  > Theoretically, you don't have to provide a blazon, but your kingdom
                                  might get pissy about that. Tell 'em what you know about the charges
                                  in period Poland, and call 'em what you want to. Heralds register the
                                  picture. The words are changed as needed.
                                  - Istvan


                                  Should I print this out and attach it to my forms? I should probably
                                  omit the word "pissy" though, don't ya think?
                                  Alrighty, as soon as I relocate the wretched forms, they are outa here!
                                  :)
                                  Rosie- won't throw tantrum after all :)
                                • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 21, 2008
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                                    <<Re: Hello Nice Herald People
                                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/message/13466;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYWtybG81BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjgwNARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUxMjYyODMEbXNnSWQDMTM0NjYEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxNDAzNjYzMA-->
                                    Posted
                                    by: "quokkaqueen" quokkaqueen@...
                                    <quokkaqueen@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Hello%20Nice%20Herald%20People>
                                    quokkaqueen
                                    <http://profiles.yahoo.com/quokkaqueen> Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:57 am (PDT) For
                                    the Abdank/Lekawica/W-thing, there is:
                                    Jan Długosz: Catalogus archiepiscoporum Gnesnensium ; Vitae
                                    episcoporum Cracoviensium. Latin. 1531-1535.

                                    There's a short English description here:
                                    http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/collectiondescription2?dirids=16
                                    And the manuscript is here:
                                    http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/doccontent2?id=63&from=editionindex&from=-3search&dirids=16

                                    On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                                    text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                                    in use before 1600.

                                    My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                                    charges existence before 1600? If not, why not? (Assuming that there
                                    was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                                    different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                                    pretty picture.)

                                    I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,
                                    especially since Rosie has been working on this for a very long time.
                                    ~Asfridhr

                                    *Rosemary Pinches and Anthony Wood (editors), A European Armorial— An
                                    Armorial of the Knights of the Golden Fleece and 15th Century Europe
                                    from a Contemporary Manuscript — With an Introduction to Polish
                                    Heraldry by Bernard J. Klec-Pilewski, London, 1991>>

                                    Yep, all those are great. I was going to suggest them, but this posted to
                                    SIG before I could answer. For others interested in Polish Heraldry, I also
                                    suggest "Banderia Apud Grunwald" (Polish Banners at Grunwald). This uses Jan
                                    Dlugosz's account of the battle (1410 AD), as well as other primary sources,
                                    to document and explain what clans (and thus their devices) were at the
                                    battle.

                                    Another good source (I believe it's also a primary source document) is
                                    Paprocki, Bartosz
                                    *Herby Rycerstwa Polskiego, *Biblioteka Kórnicka, Polskiej
                                    Akademii Nauk, 1988.

                                    Also see:

                                    Górski, Carolus, ed.

                                    *Jana Długosza, Banderia Prutenorum,* Państowe Wydawnictwo Naukowe, Warsaw,
                                    1958.



                                    Grabowska, Irena
                                    *Gallery of Arms and Colours in Poland*, The National Museum in Krakow.
                                    Exhibition guide, Krakow, 2005.

                                    --
                                    Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                    "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
                                    pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
                                    tabard." - D. Sebastian
                                    "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
                                    deserves."
                                    Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                                    SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


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