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Re: Hello Nice Herald People

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  • quokkaqueen
    So... Vert, on a fess between three Cross Osmorog argent, a Lekawica azure? Assuming that Nawojka wants to try to submit the device without the weird Polish
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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      So...
      Vert, on a fess between three Cross Osmorog argent, a Lekawica azure?

      Assuming that Nawojka wants to try to submit the device without the
      weird Polish charges, the Cross Osmorog could be substituted with a
      Cross Moline.
      http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Cross_moline

      and a Lekawica, as a capital W? Like
      http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_name.cgi?p=Rhys%20Westouer

      I thought she would have had enough dated forms of the charges to make
      a strong case, or maybe I'm just too tired to read carefully enough
      right now.

      ~Asfridhr, who should be studying and not spending so much time online.

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Lewis Tanzos <lewistanzos@...> wrote:
      <<snip>>
      > An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three
      (whatever those cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is)
      azure.
      >
      > - Istvan
      >
    • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
      The cross
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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        <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever those
        cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.

        - Istvan>>

        The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica" (pronounced
        'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry and
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
        However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have a
        cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't know
        what they'll do for the Lekawica.
        --
        Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
        "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
        pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
        tabard." - D. Sebastian
        "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
        deserves."
        Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
        SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lewis Tanzos
        ... The College of Arms doesn t tend to use specialist terms from languages other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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          --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
          >> <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever
          >> those cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.
          >> - Istvan>>
          >
          >The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica"
          >(pronounced 'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry
          >and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
          >
          >However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have >a cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't >know what they'll do for the Lekawica.

          The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be blazoned in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of weird specialist terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better. Heralds have to be able to conflict check against it, scribes have to be able to understand what they're supposed to draw.

          Prove (with dates!) that the thing you submit was used in period heraldry and you will definitely get it under some name -- and isn't the picture more important than what it's called?

          You may want to look at the following book for help:

          Herby rycerstwa polskiego / [uklad opracowal Jerzy Wislocki ; wyboru
          tekstów dokonali Ryszard Marciniak, Stanislaw Potocki, Jerzy Wislocki].

          Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings, which have a history of being incorrect. Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation images.

          - Istvan
        • jjbober4@comcast.net
          Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w Kórniku (Biblioteka Kórnicka, Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988) Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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            Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w K�rniku (Biblioteka K�rnicka, Polskiej Akademii Nauk, K�rnik 1988)

            Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history associated with each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish.

            Jan
            -------------- Original message ----------------------
            From: Lewis Tanzos <lewistanzos@...>
            > --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
            > >> <<An adequate blazon would be: Vert, on a fess between three (whatever
            > >> those cross things are) argent, a (whatever that W thing is) azure.
            > >> - Istvan>>
            > >
            > >The cross things are Cross Osmorog. The W thing is a "Lekawica"
            > >(pronounced 'wine ka veet sa"). See http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry
            > >and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry.
            > >
            > >However, the College of Heralds is unlikely to register them as-is. I have >a
            > cross osmorog on my device, but it passed as a cross fourchy. I don't >know what
            > they'll do for the Lekawica.
            >
            > The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages other
            > than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must be blazoned
            > in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of weird specialist
            > terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better. Heralds have to be
            > able to conflict check against it, scribes have to be able to understand what
            > they're supposed to draw.
            >
            > Prove (with dates!) that the thing you submit was used in period heraldry and
            > you will definitely get it under some name -- and isn't the picture more
            > important than what it's called?
            >
            > You may want to look at the following book for help:
            >
            > Herby rycerstwa polskiego / [uklad opracowal Jerzy Wislocki ; wyboru
            > tekst�w dokonali Ryszard Marciniak, Stanislaw Potocki, Jerzy Wislocki].
            >
            > Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided to
            > Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings, which
            > have a history of being incorrect. Also, what you drew isn't quite what was
            > shown in the documentation images.
            >
            > - Istvan
            >
            >
            >
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
            ... I have a theory from looking at various depictions of West Slavic heraldry, that this is exactly what happened in period-- standard charges got blazoned in
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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              > The College of Arms doesn't tend to use specialist terms from languages
              > other than the mishmash of English and French that is blazon. Items must
              > be blazoned in Western heraldic terms if we can. Yes, heraldry is full of
              > weird specialist terms, but the less of them we can introduce, the better.

              I have a theory from looking at various depictions of West Slavic
              heraldry, that this is exactly what happened in period-- standard charges
              got blazoned in heraldic language and redrawn, and so on. As a result you
              get horseshoes with crosses inside them or arrows attached to them, etc.

              Here's a couple of interesting articles on the subject, though I think
              none of them are acceptable docs for Laurel:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry

              Polish Nobility and Its Heraldry: An Introduction
              by Piotr Pawel Bajer http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

              excerpts from "Herbarz Polski" by Kasper Niesiecki, S.J., Lipsk (Leipzig)
              edition, 1839-1846. http://www.pgsa.org/Hearldry/herbarzP.htm

              Herbarz Polski index: http://www.polishroots.org/herbarz/herbarz_index.htm

              http://akromer.republika.pl/herby_szlach.html

              I just dug up my old page from the Polish knowledge site here, via the
              Internet Archive.

              Something about Polish Heraldry

              Polish heraldry tends to make most SCA (and for that matter, mundane)
              heralds want a very cold, very strong drink and a quiet lie-down
              somewhere, preferably with a wet cloth on their foreheads and a copy of
              Fox-Davies.

              Basically, the trouble with Polish heraldry is that in some significant
              ways it doesn't LOOK like or ACT like Norman English/French heraldry. Ok,
              from a distance, it might-- eighteenth and nineteenth century Polish
              heraldry has quarterings, and funny crests, and all. However, once you
              start looking at medieval Polish heraldry, you notice oddities.

              First of all, it's not terribly blazonable. The language of blazon relies
              on a certain number of field descriptions, plus a lot of objects stuck on
              those fields in various ways. As a general rule, once you've got those
              down you can describe a coat pretty easily. Polish heraldry, though, uses
              strange objects, ones that look like they started out life as arrows, or
              circles, or lines, and then changed their minds several times. The older
              the depiction you're looking at, the wierder it looks, and the less like
              anything you can describe in blazon. The later depictions of the same coat
              show things that are more recognizable, but it's easy to see that this is
              a result of having French heralds trying to describe, and then draw from
              the description, this wierd heraldry.

              Secondly, there's not enough of it, and it's not unique. You find families
              all over the place listed as having exactly the same coat of arms. This is
              the sort of thing that makes Norman Britons develop insomina, twitches,
              and finally import asassins. It's not DONE.

              Thirdly, it's got names. Not like 'Richard the Third's arms'. No. It's
              wierd names. Rawicz. Lis. Javel. And these names show up in history books
              as what look like surnames or family names, but turn out not to be.

              What's going on here? Well, to begin with, Polish heraldry is based on the
              'clan' or 'herb' system. In addition to being part of a family, every
              noble-born person (member of the szlachta) was part of a clan. Clan
              membership seems to have run more or less in families, but people from
              different regions were in the same clan, and there's no specific way to
              guess who is in which clan. Polish historians aren't quite sure where
              these came from, but then again, they aren't quite sure where the Polish
              nobility came from. The most common hypothesis is that the warriors of the
              Slavic tribes became the szlachta, and their fighting groups became the
              clans. This is borne out by the fact that each clan or herb had their own
              insignia and a war-cry to go with it.

              By the late middle ages, we have about 300 of these insignia associated
              with clans. Some have simple, wierd symbols; some of them have animal
              bits, or whole animals used in a very stylized way. Some appear to be
              combinations of others or developments of other coats, and Polish heraldic
              legend claims that they are, but since these legends appear to have been
              written down in the 18th-19th centuries, their origins are suspect.

              The heraldic theory is that these devices are the analogues of the German
              'hausmarken', sort of like cattle brands. They think that someone from the
              tourney circuit came along and introduced the Poles to the idea of
              heraldry, which the Poles thought was a pretty good idea. So, having had
              heraldry described to them, they hit upon the idea of using the insignia
              as heraldic devices. It's very easy to imagine the horror of the French
              heralds encountering this concept, but clearly the Poles prevailed.

              A Page of Clan Herby
              http://web.archive.org/web/20070225080748/http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6993/herby.htm

              The practical upshot is that pure Polish heraldry is simply a matter of
              figuring out what clan one belongs to and using that device. However, it's
              also possible to create Polish style heraldry.

              Generalizations are dangerous, but here are a few. Polish heraldry, as a
              general rule, uses insignia in a metal on a color. These insignia are
              generally joined elements, as in a badge, laid directly on a background.
              This means that sometimes one does violate the 'slot machine' rule. It is
              my opinion that colors were not that important in depictions of the
              charges, though the combinations are generally or and gules, or argent and
              azure. In some cases, specifically those with a raven as a secondary
              charge, you will see a raven proper on a colored background. Field
              divisions, which are rare, are generally either vertical or horizontal.
              Arrow and horsehoe shapes are common, as is the W shape...
              --
              -- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
              jenne@...
            • Jeanne
              I am going to Pennsic for the first time, and can t recall if there is a Slavic gathering there?     Jeanne
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 17, 2008
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                I am going to Pennsic for the first time, and can't recall if there is a Slavic gathering there?
                 
                 
                Jeanne



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              • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                ... Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988) ... each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish. ... I do have a very pretty Polish heraldry book sitting
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                  > Herby rycerstwa polskiego na zamku w Kórniku (Biblioteka Kórnicka,
                  Polskiej Akademii Nauk, Kórnik 1988)
                  >
                  > Is also quite helpful, and gives a lot of history associated with
                  each herb. That is, of course, if you read Polish.
                  >
                  > Jan

                  I do have a very pretty Polish heraldry book sitting right here. It
                  is in Polish, which is a minor problem. The real problem about
                  submitting it with the charges proper names is that I can't find any
                  extant examples of the Leckawika being drawn the way I want it.
                  Everything Asfridhr has kindly dug out for me shows it more like
                  a "W" whereas the way I've drawn it is supposed to be a 15th century
                  representation. I just can't find a primary source for that. The
                  other is that I can't find any extant pics of Cross Osmorogs at all.
                  They are in my nice and pretty book, but the author only says that he
                  uses predominantly 15th century artwork. Naturally the text is
                  footnoted, but the artwork isn't as he's redrawn it. I think I'll
                  take the advice and submit it with the best I can do, and resubmit in
                  the future if I ever collect herald impressing documentation. :)
                  Is there a list of College approved crosses? A cross milrine looks
                  closest (http://www.theweebsite.com/heraldry/charges_crosses.html -
                  fourth row on the end.)
                  Thanks guys,
                  Rosie
                • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                    <<Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was provided
                    to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period re-drawings,
                    which have a history of being incorrect.>>

                    Dunno. The stuff I have was dated in the late 1300's, which was what you
                    saw. I have other documentation I *could* have submitted, but I thought what
                    I provided was sufficient.

                    <<Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation
                    images.

                    - Istvan>>
                    Which was why I re-drew it. It looked almost exactly like what Nawojka has
                    on her device.

                    Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of Heralds
                    *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than having the
                    perception of being hyper-critical.

                    YMMV. :)
                    --
                    Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                    "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
                    pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
                    tabard." - D. Sebastian
                    "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
                    deserves."
                    Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                    SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lewis Tanzos
                    ... I was most careful in what I wrote, and you have apparently misunderstood. You submitted some papers to your kingdom. It may very well have been wonderful
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 18, 2008
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                      --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
                      > > <<Zygmunt: I have seen your submission and what documentation was
                      > > provided to Laurel by your kingdom. The images appear to be post-period
                      > > re-drawings, which have a history of being incorrect.>>

                      > Dunno. The stuff I have was dated in the late 1300's, which was what you
                      > saw. I have other documentation I *could* have submitted, but I thought > what I provided was sufficient.

                      I was most careful in what I wrote, and you have apparently misunderstood.

                      You submitted some papers to your kingdom. It may very well have been wonderful documentation with dates. I have no idea if I've seen it. I definitely have seen what was sent to Laurel by your kingdom - I wrote to the file clerk and asked her to send me the contents of your file. Because of my heraldic position, she was willing to do this.

                      The papers that were sent to Laurel said nothing that I could decipher as saying the images were dated to the 1300s. There were some very nice numbers that look like dates ... but I don't read Latin or Polish and there does not seem to have been a translation provided -- which is required for non-English documentation.

                      ...there's still the issue that the pictures that are shown in that documentation are obviously not from the 1300s. They are modern re-drawings, which means they're unreliable. (One looks Victorian, which is even worse)

                      > > <<Also, what you drew isn't quite what was shown in the documentation
                      > > images.
                      > Which was why I re-drew it. It looked almost exactly like what Nawojka
                      > has on her device.

                      I've seen your form and hers within ten seconds of each other. I would say "reminiscent of" not "almost exactly like".

                      > Doesn't matter now though. It'd just be nice if the College of Heralds
                      > *seemed* like they wanted to pass people's devices, rather than having
                      > the perception of being hyper-critical.

                      Starting next month, for three years, I will be the person deciding on armory for the SCA. Once your stuff gets out of your kingdom, the buck will be stopping with me. If it doesn't get out of kingdom, I won't even see it.

                      I do want to pass your device. I would absolutely love if every single device that came to me for consideration would pass. This is the case for every single one of my predecessors that I have met, and I know all of them back to 1986.

                      I will have roughly eight hours a month to consider 150 items - one item every three minutes or so. Make it easy on me. Prove to me that what you want to do is period heraldry, using documentation that includes dates I can trust, with pictures or drawings actually done in period -- not a date you write, not a date that the author of the book made up, not a picture or drawing of something done after 1600. Avoid conflict with other registered devices in the SCA. Do this and I will pass your device.

                      Make it righteous period heraldry, and I'll even *like* passing it.

                      > YMMV. :)

                      It certainly does.

                      - Istvan
                    • Sfandra
                      ... ... ... Oh lordy lord. I don t know whether to say Congrats or My Condolences... ;) Having played the Herald game, I have to say, it s odd
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                        --- Lewis Tanzos <lewistanzos@...> wrote:
                        <SNIP>
                        > Starting next month, for three years, I will be the
                        > person deciding on armory for the SCA.
                        <SNIP>
                        >
                        > - Istvan

                        Oh lordy lord. I don't know whether to say Congrats
                        or My Condolences... ;)

                        Having played the Herald game, I have to say, it's odd
                        that one of the most period things we do (using
                        heraldry) is one of the most hated positions in the
                        Society.

                        But....in honor of your sacrifice/willingness, I will
                        now get off my duff and actually SUBMIT the device
                        I've been using for years.... (and yes, I conflict
                        check it every couple of months, just to make sure I
                        can keep using it) ;)

                        --Sfandra
                        --heraldry geek, unwarranted....



                        ******************
                        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                        KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                        Haus Von Drakenklaue
                        Kingdom of the East
                        ******************
                        Never 'pearl' your butt.
                      • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                        I m going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to call the charges! Will cross milrine and two conjoined books without pages do? Our
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                          I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                          call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                          pages" do?
                          Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                          questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                          I'll be to anyone!!
                          :)
                          Nawojka
                        • Patricia Hefner
                          I wish I could help you but I m not a herald. THL Isabelle de Foix Shire Brantestone Kingdom of Meridies  Support your friendly local autistics...........I m
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                            I wish I could help you but I'm not a herald.
                            THL Isabelle de Foix
                            Shire Brantestone
                            Kingdom of Meridies
                             Support your friendly local autistics...........I'm one of them.



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:51:16 PM
                            Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People


                            I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                            call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                            pages" do?
                            Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                            questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                            I'll be to anyone!!
                            :)
                            Nawojka

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                          • Lewis Tanzos
                            ... From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People To: sig@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:51 PM
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 19, 2008
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                              --- On Thu, 6/19/08, Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
                              From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                              Subject: [sig] Re: Hello Nice Herald People
                              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 8:51 PM

                              > I'm going to cry, or have a hormonal hissy fit. Please tell me what to
                              > call the charges! Will "cross milrine" and "two conjoined books without
                              > pages" do?

                              Theoretically, you don't have to provide a blazon, but your kingdom might get pissy about that. Tell 'em what you know about the charges in period Poland, and call 'em what you want to. Heralds register the picture. The words are changed as needed.

                              > Our rocket herald told me I had to be a herald because I asked too many
                              > questions, but since I know virtually nothing, I'm not sure what good
                              > I'll be to anyone!!

                              We all start somewhere.

                              - Istvan
                            • quokkaqueen
                              Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at least have a shot at have a look at this period manuscript and see what you say. For the
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at
                                least have a shot at 'have a look at this period manuscript and see
                                what you say.'

                                For the Abdank/Lekawica/W-thing, there is:
                                Jan Długosz: Catalogus archiepiscoporum Gnesnensium ; Vitae
                                episcoporum Cracoviensium. Latin. 1531-1535.

                                There's a short English description here:
                                http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/collectiondescription2?dirids=16
                                And the manuscript is here:
                                http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/doccontent2?id=63&from=editionindex&from=-3search&dirids=16

                                On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                                text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                                in use before 1600.

                                My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                                charges existence before 1600? If not, why not? (Assuming that there
                                was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                                different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                                pretty picture.)

                                I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,
                                especially since Rosie has been working on this for a very long time.
                                ~Asfridhr

                                *Rosemary Pinches and Anthony Wood (editors), A European Armorial— An
                                Armorial of the Knights of the Golden Fleece and 15th Century Europe
                                from a Contemporary Manuscript — With an Introduction to Polish
                                Heraldry by Bernard J. Klec-Pilewski, London, 1991

                                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
                                <<snip>>
                                > I'm pretty sure the W thing is in the PicDic already.
                                > I know I've seen it somewhere....
                                >
                                > The cross thingies can always be blazoned as some
                                > existing form of cross, but DRAWN however you want....
                                > Then down the road, you resubmit once the College
                                > acknowledges the polish elements properly.
                                >
                                > --Sfandra
                                >
                                >
                                > ******************
                                > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                                > KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                > Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                > Kingdom of the East
                                > ******************
                                > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                                >
                              • Lewis Tanzos
                                ... It most certainly does. Looks like it s used in heraldry, too. ... It s a book made before 1600 and it includes the charge in a heraldic context. By our
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 20, 2008
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                                  --- On Fri, 6/20/08, quokkaqueen <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                                  > Since there are such knowledgeable heralds on this list, I can at
                                  > least have a shot at 'have a look at this period manuscript and see
                                  > what you say.'

                                  > On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                                  > text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                                  > in use before 1600.

                                  It most certainly does. Looks like it's used in heraldry, too.

                                  > My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                                  > charges existence before 1600? If not, why not?

                                  It's a book made before 1600 and it includes the charge in a heraldic context. By our rules, we nearly *have* to allow it, we just have to figure out what to call it (and that's our worry, not yours). The exception is if the guy was doodling art in heraldic contexts -- and it doesn't look like this book is doing that.

                                  Realize that since it looks like a letter "W", it's going to be conflict check against letters.

                                  Make sure you include copies of those pages, the title page, and the description in the submission.

                                  > (Assuming that there
                                  > was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                                  > different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                                  > pretty picture.)

                                  Please include that as well, yes.

                                  > I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,

                                  I'm treading a very thin line here. Since I'm the final arbiter, I'm not allowed to give public opinions on this sort of thing until I'm actually ruling on the submission -- somebody might turn up other evidence that counteracts what looks like otherwise good documentation.

                                  That being said, and realizing that my final decision will depend on what else the College of Arms might come up with - for or against, what you have here does look pretty conclusive for the leckiwicka ... under some name.

                                  - Istvan
                                • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                                  ... might get pissy about that. Tell em what you know about the charges in period Poland, and call em what you want to. Heralds register the picture. The
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 21, 2008
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                                    > Theoretically, you don't have to provide a blazon, but your kingdom
                                    might get pissy about that. Tell 'em what you know about the charges
                                    in period Poland, and call 'em what you want to. Heralds register the
                                    picture. The words are changed as needed.
                                    - Istvan


                                    Should I print this out and attach it to my forms? I should probably
                                    omit the word "pissy" though, don't ya think?
                                    Alrighty, as soon as I relocate the wretched forms, they are outa here!
                                    :)
                                    Rosie- won't throw tantrum after all :)
                                  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 21, 2008
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                                      <<Re: Hello Nice Herald People
                                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sig/message/13466;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYWtybG81BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzIyNjgwNARncnBzcElkAzE3MDUxMjYyODMEbXNnSWQDMTM0NjYEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTIxNDAzNjYzMA-->
                                      Posted
                                      by: "quokkaqueen" quokkaqueen@...
                                      <quokkaqueen@...?Subject=+Re%3A%20Hello%20Nice%20Herald%20People>
                                      quokkaqueen
                                      <http://profiles.yahoo.com/quokkaqueen> Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:57 am (PDT) For
                                      the Abdank/Lekawica/W-thing, there is:
                                      Jan Długosz: Catalogus archiepiscoporum Gnesnensium ; Vitae
                                      episcoporum Cracoviensium. Latin. 1531-1535.

                                      There's a short English description here:
                                      http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/collectiondescription2?dirids=16
                                      And the manuscript is here:
                                      http://www.polona.pl/dlibra/doccontent2?id=63&from=editionindex&from=-3search&dirids=16

                                      On pages 44 and 93, you can see a W on a shield. It isn't a heraldic
                                      text, so it wouldn't discuss in detail the charge, but it does show it
                                      in use before 1600.

                                      My question is, could this manuscript be used as a source, to show the
                                      charges existence before 1600? If not, why not? (Assuming that there
                                      was other documentation like an English reprint of a book,* from a
                                      different manuscript that also describes the charge. Instead of just a
                                      pretty picture.)

                                      I'm curious about the amount of documentation that would be needed,
                                      especially since Rosie has been working on this for a very long time.
                                      ~Asfridhr

                                      *Rosemary Pinches and Anthony Wood (editors), A European Armorial— An
                                      Armorial of the Knights of the Golden Fleece and 15th Century Europe
                                      from a Contemporary Manuscript — With an Introduction to Polish
                                      Heraldry by Bernard J. Klec-Pilewski, London, 1991>>

                                      Yep, all those are great. I was going to suggest them, but this posted to
                                      SIG before I could answer. For others interested in Polish Heraldry, I also
                                      suggest "Banderia Apud Grunwald" (Polish Banners at Grunwald). This uses Jan
                                      Dlugosz's account of the battle (1410 AD), as well as other primary sources,
                                      to document and explain what clans (and thus their devices) were at the
                                      battle.

                                      Another good source (I believe it's also a primary source document) is
                                      Paprocki, Bartosz
                                      *Herby Rycerstwa Polskiego, *Biblioteka Kórnicka, Polskiej
                                      Akademii Nauk, 1988.

                                      Also see:

                                      Górski, Carolus, ed.

                                      *Jana Długosza, Banderia Prutenorum,* Państowe Wydawnictwo Naukowe, Warsaw,
                                      1958.



                                      Grabowska, Irena
                                      *Gallery of Arms and Colours in Poland*, The National Museum in Krakow.
                                      Exhibition guide, Krakow, 2005.

                                      --
                                      Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                      "To rip the ugly, false, and weak from my soul and hurl it into hell. To
                                      pull the powerful, intrepid, and unstoppable from within and wear it like a
                                      tabard." - D. Sebastian
                                      "Some day I hope to be the man my kids believe me to be and the man my Wife
                                      deserves."
                                      Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                                      SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


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