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Re: Help with a Name

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  • quokkaqueen
    Andreas, I m not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I ve had a little luck with looking at books. I only say a little because I have found
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
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      Andreas,
      I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
      little luck with looking at books.

      I only say a little because I have found 'Černák' (from černá; black,
      adjective) as a byname, but not Čermák (robin, noun). But it seems to
      be that one little letter that makes all the difference.

      If Alastair is still on the list, would he know how likely it is that
      the n may be substituted for an m in pronouncing the two words? Would
      they be good ingredients for a tongue twister?

      Here is the scant information I've found on Černák, I hope it helps.

      Dobrava Moldanová "Naše příjmení" (Mladá Fronta Praha, 1983)

      p.53
      Čermák, - it's there, but no dated examples!
      Černa, - 1052, Cerna
      Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
      - 1383, Johannes Czrnak,
      - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic
      Černec, - 1425
      Černík, - 1318, Czirnik
      Černín, - 1411, panossie Czrnyna z Chudienicz
      Černoch,
      - 1308 frater Zcernochonis
      - 1406 Nic. Czrnoch

      Josef Beneš "O Český příjmeních" (Praha, Nakladatelství Československé
      akademie věd, 1962)
      p.264
      Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
      - 1383, Johannes Cznak,
      - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic

      I double checked, and both sources have spelt Johannes Cz(r)nak
      differently. Thankfully Beneš gives a source:
      W.W Tomek, "Základy starého místopisu pražského, Nové Město" p. 309

      Now, Tomek died in 1905, so I'm sure his book could be found online
      somewhere, I'm just not sure were to look.

      Looking at the spelling of the pre-1600 examples, it seems you might
      be looking for a Czirmak or Czrmak, but the only thing I can find so
      far is the 19th century German doctor Johann Nepomuk Czermak.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nepomuk_Czermak

      As I said, I hope this helps a little.
      ~Asfridhr

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its
      > origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking
      > for documentation of it being used pre-1500's.
      <<snip>>
    • quokkaqueen
      Gyah! č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively. ě is e-hacek ň is n-hacek ř is r-hacek To make this extra-confusing, if
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
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        Gyah!
        č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively.
        ě is e-hacek
        ň is n-hacek
        ř is r-hacek

        To make this extra-confusing, if you copy and paste the 'gibberish'
        text into Google it will correct it and search for the word including
        the hacek-bits. That's because it's the Unicode format for the
        symbols. I forgot that Yahoo has fits over these sorts of things, sorry.

        ~Asfridhr

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
        >
        > Andreas,
        > I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
        > little luck with looking at books.
        <<snip>>
      • quokkaqueen
        Doing a bit better after this bout in the library. Source: Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_ (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 10, 2008
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          Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.

          Source:
          Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
          (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
          Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
          1965-1967)

          p.438
          sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
          Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435

          sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
          Paulus Czirmak, 1394
          Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
          Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
          Super donum Czirmak, 1438
          Czirmakoni, 1421
          Cirmakonis, 1592
          Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
          Cermag, 1416
          Czermak, 1417
          Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
          Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430

          Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it seems
          they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might include
          Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
          (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)

          So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
          ~Asfridhr
        • Andrew
          Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask. Andreas ... seems ... include
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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            Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
            anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.

            Andreas

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.
            >
            > Source:
            > Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
            > (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
            > Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
            > 1965-1967)
            >
            > p.438
            > sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
            > Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435
            >
            > sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
            > Paulus Czirmak, 1394
            > Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
            > Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
            > Super donum Czirmak, 1438
            > Czirmakoni, 1421
            > Cirmakonis, 1592
            > Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
            > Cermag, 1416
            > Czermak, 1417
            > Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
            > Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430
            >
            > Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it
            seems
            > they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might
            include
            > Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
            > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)
            >
            > So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
            > ~Asfridhr
            >
          • quokkaqueen
            No, you ve been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing, I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn t involve reading
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 12, 2008
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              No, you've been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing,
              I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn't
              involve reading botany articles. :)

              But if I find anything else, I will pass it on.
              ~Asfridhr

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
              > anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.
              >
              > Andreas
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