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Re: Help with a Name

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  • Andreas Van Hassen
    I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking for documentation of
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 7, 2008
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      I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its
      origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking
      for documentation of it being used pre-1500's.

      It was also my fraternal grandmother's maiden name as well. Sadly I
      don't know much of that side of my family. My parents divorced when I
      was a wee lad. So for personal side I am looking for my "roots" per
      say. I do know my grandmother's full name (Stephine Josephine Cermak)
      and she was from Puchov.

      All your help is very much appreciated.

      IYS
      Andrew


      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Are you interested in the meaning of the byname, or in the sound?
      > (Websters online says it means Robin, as in the little bird.)
      >
      > When I go into uni tomorrow I'll look at some books in the library
      for
      > you. :)
      >
      > ~Asfridhr
      >
      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@>
      wrote:
      > >
      > > I need some help on finding documentations for a Bohemian by-name
      and I
      > > was hoping someone would be able to point me in to the right
      direction.
      > >
      > > The by-name is Èermák. (Cermak)
      > >
      > > Thank you
      > >
      > > Andrew
      > >
      >
    • quokkaqueen
      Andreas, I m not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I ve had a little luck with looking at books. I only say a little because I have found
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
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        Andreas,
        I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
        little luck with looking at books.

        I only say a little because I have found 'Černák' (from černá; black,
        adjective) as a byname, but not Čermák (robin, noun). But it seems to
        be that one little letter that makes all the difference.

        If Alastair is still on the list, would he know how likely it is that
        the n may be substituted for an m in pronouncing the two words? Would
        they be good ingredients for a tongue twister?

        Here is the scant information I've found on Černák, I hope it helps.

        Dobrava Moldanová "Naše příjmení" (Mladá Fronta Praha, 1983)

        p.53
        Čermák, - it's there, but no dated examples!
        Černa, - 1052, Cerna
        Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
        - 1383, Johannes Czrnak,
        - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic
        Černec, - 1425
        Černík, - 1318, Czirnik
        Černín, - 1411, panossie Czrnyna z Chudienicz
        Černoch,
        - 1308 frater Zcernochonis
        - 1406 Nic. Czrnoch

        Josef Beneš "O Český příjmeních" (Praha, Nakladatelství Československé
        akademie věd, 1962)
        p.264
        Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
        - 1383, Johannes Cznak,
        - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic

        I double checked, and both sources have spelt Johannes Cz(r)nak
        differently. Thankfully Beneš gives a source:
        W.W Tomek, "Základy starého místopisu pražského, Nové Město" p. 309

        Now, Tomek died in 1905, so I'm sure his book could be found online
        somewhere, I'm just not sure were to look.

        Looking at the spelling of the pre-1600 examples, it seems you might
        be looking for a Czirmak or Czrmak, but the only thing I can find so
        far is the 19th century German doctor Johann Nepomuk Czermak.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nepomuk_Czermak

        As I said, I hope this helps a little.
        ~Asfridhr

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its
        > origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking
        > for documentation of it being used pre-1500's.
        <<snip>>
      • quokkaqueen
        Gyah! č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively. ě is e-hacek ň is n-hacek ř is r-hacek To make this extra-confusing, if
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
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          Gyah!
          č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively.
          ě is e-hacek
          ň is n-hacek
          ř is r-hacek

          To make this extra-confusing, if you copy and paste the 'gibberish'
          text into Google it will correct it and search for the word including
          the hacek-bits. That's because it's the Unicode format for the
          symbols. I forgot that Yahoo has fits over these sorts of things, sorry.

          ~Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
          >
          > Andreas,
          > I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
          > little luck with looking at books.
          <<snip>>
        • quokkaqueen
          Doing a bit better after this bout in the library. Source: Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_ (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 10, 2008
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            Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.

            Source:
            Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
            (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
            Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
            1965-1967)

            p.438
            sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
            Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435

            sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
            Paulus Czirmak, 1394
            Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
            Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
            Super donum Czirmak, 1438
            Czirmakoni, 1421
            Cirmakonis, 1592
            Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
            Cermag, 1416
            Czermak, 1417
            Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
            Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430

            Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it seems
            they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might include
            Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
            (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)

            So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
            ~Asfridhr
          • Andrew
            Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask. Andreas ... seems ... include
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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              Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
              anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.

              Andreas

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
              >
              > Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.
              >
              > Source:
              > Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
              > (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
              > Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
              > 1965-1967)
              >
              > p.438
              > sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
              > Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435
              >
              > sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
              > Paulus Czirmak, 1394
              > Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
              > Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
              > Super donum Czirmak, 1438
              > Czirmakoni, 1421
              > Cirmakonis, 1592
              > Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
              > Cermag, 1416
              > Czermak, 1417
              > Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
              > Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430
              >
              > Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it
              seems
              > they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might
              include
              > Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
              > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)
              >
              > So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
              > ~Asfridhr
              >
            • quokkaqueen
              No, you ve been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing, I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn t involve reading
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 12, 2008
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                No, you've been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing,
                I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn't
                involve reading botany articles. :)

                But if I find anything else, I will pass it on.
                ~Asfridhr

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
                > anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.
                >
                > Andreas
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