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Re: Help with a Name

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  • quokkaqueen
    Are you interested in the meaning of the byname, or in the sound? (Websters online says it means Robin, as in the little bird.) When I go into uni tomorrow
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 7, 2008
      Are you interested in the meaning of the byname, or in the sound?
      (Websters online says it means Robin, as in the little bird.)

      When I go into uni tomorrow I'll look at some books in the library for
      you. :)

      ~Asfridhr

      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
      >
      > I need some help on finding documentations for a Bohemian by-name and I
      > was hoping someone would be able to point me in to the right direction.
      >
      > The by-name is Èermák. (Cermak)
      >
      > Thank you
      >
      > Andrew
      >
    • Andreas Van Hassen
      I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking for documentation of
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 7, 2008
        I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its
        origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking
        for documentation of it being used pre-1500's.

        It was also my fraternal grandmother's maiden name as well. Sadly I
        don't know much of that side of my family. My parents divorced when I
        was a wee lad. So for personal side I am looking for my "roots" per
        say. I do know my grandmother's full name (Stephine Josephine Cermak)
        and she was from Puchov.

        All your help is very much appreciated.

        IYS
        Andrew


        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
        >
        > Are you interested in the meaning of the byname, or in the sound?
        > (Websters online says it means Robin, as in the little bird.)
        >
        > When I go into uni tomorrow I'll look at some books in the library
        for
        > you. :)
        >
        > ~Asfridhr
        >
        > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > I need some help on finding documentations for a Bohemian by-name
        and I
        > > was hoping someone would be able to point me in to the right
        direction.
        > >
        > > The by-name is Èermák. (Cermak)
        > >
        > > Thank you
        > >
        > > Andrew
        > >
        >
      • quokkaqueen
        Andreas, I m not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I ve had a little luck with looking at books. I only say a little because I have found
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
          Andreas,
          I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
          little luck with looking at books.

          I only say a little because I have found 'Černák' (from černá; black,
          adjective) as a byname, but not Čermák (robin, noun). But it seems to
          be that one little letter that makes all the difference.

          If Alastair is still on the list, would he know how likely it is that
          the n may be substituted for an m in pronouncing the two words? Would
          they be good ingredients for a tongue twister?

          Here is the scant information I've found on Černák, I hope it helps.

          Dobrava Moldanová "Naše příjmení" (Mladá Fronta Praha, 1983)

          p.53
          Čermák, - it's there, but no dated examples!
          Černa, - 1052, Cerna
          Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
          - 1383, Johannes Czrnak,
          - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic
          Černec, - 1425
          Černík, - 1318, Czirnik
          Černín, - 1411, panossie Czrnyna z Chudienicz
          Černoch,
          - 1308 frater Zcernochonis
          - 1406 Nic. Czrnoch

          Josef Beneš "O Český příjmeních" (Praha, Nakladatelství Československé
          akademie věd, 1962)
          p.264
          Černáč, Černák, Čerňáč.
          - 1383, Johannes Cznak,
          - 1409, Černák z Strážkovic

          I double checked, and both sources have spelt Johannes Cz(r)nak
          differently. Thankfully Beneš gives a source:
          W.W Tomek, "Základy starého místopisu pražského, Nové Město" p. 309

          Now, Tomek died in 1905, so I'm sure his book could be found online
          somewhere, I'm just not sure were to look.

          Looking at the spelling of the pre-1600 examples, it seems you might
          be looking for a Czirmak or Czrmak, but the only thing I can find so
          far is the 19th century German doctor Johann Nepomuk Czermak.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Nepomuk_Czermak

          As I said, I hope this helps a little.
          ~Asfridhr

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andreas Van Hassen" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am interested in its meaning and sound as well as history of its
          > origins. I would like to it as my by-name in the SCA, so I am looking
          > for documentation of it being used pre-1500's.
          <<snip>>
        • quokkaqueen
          Gyah! č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively. ě is e-hacek ň is n-hacek ř is r-hacek To make this extra-confusing, if
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
            Gyah!
            č and Č are lower and upper case C-hacek respectively.
            ě is e-hacek
            ň is n-hacek
            ř is r-hacek

            To make this extra-confusing, if you copy and paste the 'gibberish'
            text into Google it will correct it and search for the word including
            the hacek-bits. That's because it's the Unicode format for the
            symbols. I forgot that Yahoo has fits over these sorts of things, sorry.

            ~Asfridhr

            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Andreas,
            > I'm not an expert at all on Bohemian or Czech names, but I've had a
            > little luck with looking at books.
            <<snip>>
          • quokkaqueen
            Doing a bit better after this bout in the library. Source: Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_ (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 10, 2008
              Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.

              Source:
              Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
              (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
              Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
              1965-1967)

              p.438
              sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
              Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435

              sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
              Paulus Czirmak, 1394
              Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
              Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
              Super donum Czirmak, 1438
              Czirmakoni, 1421
              Cirmakonis, 1592
              Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
              Cermag, 1416
              Czermak, 1417
              Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
              Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430

              Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it seems
              they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might include
              Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
              (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)

              So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
              ~Asfridhr
            • Andrew
              Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask. Andreas ... seems ... include
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
                Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
                anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.

                Andreas

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "quokkaqueen" <quokkaqueen@...> wrote:
                >
                > Doing a bit better after this bout in the library.
                >
                > Source:
                > Witold Taszycki (ed.), _S{l/}ownik Staropolskich Nazw Osobowych_
                > (Dictionary of Old Polish Personal Names), vol. I (Wroc{l/}aw:
                > Zak{l/}ad Narodowy Imienia Ossoli{n'}skich, Polska Akademia Nauk,
                > 1965-1967)
                >
                > p.438
                > sn. Czyrmaczewic(z}
                > Clymek Cyrmaczewyc, 1435
                >
                > sn. Czyrmak, Czermak
                > Paulus Czirmak, 1394
                > Ex oposito Czirmak, 1419
                > Iuncho Czirmak, 1434
                > Super donum Czirmak, 1438
                > Czirmakoni, 1421
                > Cirmakonis, 1592
                > Der Iuchne, Czirmaken von 1430
                > Cermag, 1416
                > Czermak, 1417
                > Cermaconi Ruteno, 1417
                > Iunchno, fillius Cermaconis, 1430
                >
                > Although this is a Polish book, looking at the sources used, it
                seems
                > they're from the Greater Poland/Wielkopolska area, which might
                include
                > Silesia, which is now partially within the Czech republic.
                > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesia)
                >
                > So, it's a long shot, but I'll continue hunting references.
                > ~Asfridhr
                >
              • quokkaqueen
                No, you ve been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing, I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn t involve reading
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 12, 2008
                  No, you've been a fantastic distraction from essay and report writing,
                  I should be thanking you for giving me something to do that doesn't
                  involve reading botany articles. :)

                  But if I find anything else, I will pass it on.
                  ~Asfridhr

                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <adhazen1974@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you so much for your help. I owe you so much, if there is
                  > anything I can ever do to repay you please just ask.
                  >
                  > Andreas
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