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Re: [sig] Cross Osmorog

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  • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
    Hi Rosie! First, I want to clarify
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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      <<Hello,
      Does anyone have any convincing documentation for this? Is there some
      alternative name for it, perhaps?
      :)
      Rosie>>
      Hi Rosie!

      First, I want to clarify - what do you mean by "convincing"?

      I think I might. I have some photocopies of this, showing it used back to
      1354. This tamga features prominently in my device. :) See
      http://squires.midrealm.org/zyg.htm


      >
      > --
      > Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, Editor, Artes Draconis
      > "Most people live their lives as if they had another one in the bank" -
      > Ben Irwin
      > "I Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" - Bob Seager
      > Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
      > SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kevin purtrell
      Panni, never ask a Heraldry geek a question, unless you want a very long answer some of which you may understand. There is:
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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        Panni, never ask a Heraldry geek a question, unless you want a very long answer some of which you may understand.

        There is:
        http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

        Pan Zygmunt's device was accepted, However, according to Laurel's Letter Jan 2004:


        Zygmunt Nadratowski. Device. Per pale argent and gules, a cross fourchy between the tines of each fork a roundel sable.
        This was blazoned in the Letter of Intent (and by the submitter) as a cross Osmorog. The submitter provided some documentation which the submitting herald provided, at least in part, to the College on-line. The Letter of Intent says that the documentation has associated dates in period, but the on-line versions of the documentation did not provide any dates or any associated explanatory text. The provided documentation only showed the emblazon and fringes of the surrounding text, which were cut off when the documentation was originally reproduced or scanned. No other documentation was provided to Wreath from the submitting kingdom.
        The College's research noted that the charges surrounding the cross Osmorog (roundels in this emblazon) are not integral parts of the cross Osmorog but need to be blazoned separately. The College's research also resulted in significant doubt about whether the cross in this submission is a correct depiction of a period cross Osmorog. We have thus chosen to blazon this device using standard Western terms.
        We considered blazoning this either as a variant of a cross moline or of a cross fourchy. Because the ends of a cross moline are pointed and deeply curved, and the ends of this cross are couped flat and only slightly curved, we have reblazoned these as crosses fourchy.

        THL Kevin Ambrozijwski, Incunabula Pursuivant



        Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski <panzygmunt@...> wrote:
        <<Hello,
        Does anyone have any convincing documentation for this? Is there some
        alternative name for it, perhaps?
        :)
        Rosie>>
        Hi Rosie!

        First, I want to clarify - what do you mean by "convincing"?

        I think I might. I have some photocopies of this, showing it used back to
        1354. This tamga features prominently in my device. :) See
        http://squires.midrealm.org/zyg.htm

        >
        > --
        > Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, Editor, Artes Draconis
        > "Most people live their lives as if they had another one in the bank" -
        > Ben Irwin
        > "I Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" - Bob Seager
        > Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
        > SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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      • Marilyn Kinyon
        Thank you so much Everyone, Thanks to you I think I have everything I need for this now. All my books are packed up because we are remodeling so I had no hope
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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          Thank you so much Everyone,
          Thanks to you I think I have everything I need for this now. All my
          books are packed up because we are remodeling so I had no hope of
          finding it here. I will be showing the project this weekend at Ice
          Dragon in Buffalo, NY. (And taking pictures.) So once I have a good
          pic I will post it so everyone can see. I'm happy to have it
          completed as it will be my fist nice set of court garb !

          Lady Marija
        • Marilyn Kinyon
          Ok, I went and registered my classes and I will be teaching Kievan Daily Life and Kievan Russ: Who lived where when? The second is a class that will talk
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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            Ok, I went and registered my classes and I will be teaching "Kievan
            Daily Life" and "Kievan Russ: Who lived where when?" The second is a
            class that will talk bit about how the tribes migrated and evolved. I
            will bring big maps so folks can see where a certain tribes were at
            certain times. This is intended to help with persona development.

            Lady Marija
          • melissahannon
            WooHoo!! I ll see you there. I ll be the one in black and Salmon linen with a calligraphy pen glued to my hand... Zosia
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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              WooHoo!! I'll see you there. I'll be the one in black and Salmon
              linen with a calligraphy pen glued to my hand...

              Zosia

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn Kinyon" <mamalynx@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thank you so much Everyone,
              > Thanks to you I think I have everything I need for this now. All my
              > books are packed up because we are remodeling so I had no hope of
              > finding it here. I will be showing the project this weekend at Ice
              > Dragon in Buffalo, NY. (And taking pictures.) So once I have a good
              > pic I will post it so everyone can see. I'm happy to have it
              > completed as it will be my fist nice set of court garb !
              >
              > Lady Marija
              >
            • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
              ... back to ... Hey there Pan Zygmunt :) By convincing, I mean something other than what Kevin suggested (thanks anyway Kevin!) which I d already found, and I
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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                > First, I want to clarify - what do you mean by "convincing"?
                >
                > I think I might. I have some photocopies of this, showing it used
                back to
                > 1354.

                Hey there Pan Zygmunt :)
                By convincing, I mean something other than what Kevin suggested (thanks
                anyway Kevin!) which I'd already found, and I know our rocket herald
                won't be convinced by. Nice pretty pictures from a period example with
                dates is exactly what I mean by convincing. Though, if your examples
                were that convincing, why wasn't the college convinced? It doesn't look
                much like a crosses fourchy to me. I sure wish the lovely person who
                made the http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm site provided footnotes.
                I love footnotes.
                :)
                Rosie
              • Patricia Hefner
                What s a rocket herald? THL Isabelle de Foix Shire Brantestone Kingdom of Meridies Support your friendly local autistics...........I m one of them. ... From:
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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                  What's a rocket herald?
                  THL Isabelle de Foix
                  Shire Brantestone
                  Kingdom of Meridies


                  Support your friendly local autistics...........I'm one of them.



                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                  To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:13:39 PM
                  Subject: [sig] Re: Cross Osmorog

                  > First, I want to clarify - what do you mean by "convincing" ?
                  >
                  > I think I might. I have some photocopies of this, showing it used
                  back to
                  > 1354.

                  Hey there Pan Zygmunt :)
                  By convincing, I mean something other than what Kevin suggested (thanks
                  anyway Kevin!) which I'd already found, and I know our rocket herald
                  won't be convinced by. Nice pretty pictures from a period example with
                  dates is exactly what I mean by convincing. Though, if your examples
                  were that convincing, why wasn't the college convinced? It doesn't look
                  much like a crosses fourchy to me. I sure wish the lovely person who
                  made the http://www.szlachta .org/heraldry. htm site provided footnotes.
                  I love footnotes.
                  :)
                  Rosie




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                • Kataryna Dragonweaver
                  Sigh! I wish I could make Pennsic.... maybe one of these years. I would love to take that class Marija - any chance you ll ever be in the Avacal or Tir Righ
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 12, 2008
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                    Sigh!
                    I wish I could make Pennsic.... maybe one of these years.
                    I would love to take that class Marija - any chance you'll ever be in
                    the Avacal or Tir Righ area of AnTir. (Or can be lured here to teach??)
                    -Kataryna

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn Kinyon" <mamalynx@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ok, I went and registered my classes and I will be teaching "Kievan
                    > Daily Life" and "Kievan Russ: Who lived where when?" The second is a
                    > class that will talk bit about how the tribes migrated and evolved. I
                    > will bring big maps so folks can see where a certain tribes were at
                    > certain times. This is intended to help with persona development.
                    >
                    > Lady Marija
                    >
                  • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                    ... Oh, sorry, I thought we all had one. Rocket is the boss submissions herald in Lochac. If I m wrong, Asfridhr will correct me, I m sure. ... Rosie
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 13, 2008
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                      > What's a rocket herald?
                      > THL Isabelle de Foix
                      > Shire Brantestone
                      > Kingdom of Meridies
                      >

                      Oh, sorry, I thought we all had one. Rocket is the boss submissions
                      herald in Lochac. If I'm wrong, Asfridhr will correct me, I'm sure.
                      :)
                      Rosie
                    • Patricia Hefner
                      We don t have one in Meridies. All of our heralds in Meridies have names that pertain to fire, like Beacon and Torch. Yours in Service, THL Isabelle de Foix
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 13, 2008
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                        We don't have one in Meridies. All of our heralds in Meridies have names that pertain to fire, like Beacon and Torch.
                        Yours in Service,
                        THL Isabelle de Foix
                        Shire Brantestone
                        Kingdom of Meridies


                        Support your friendly local autistics...........I'm one of them.



                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Rosie (aka Nawojka) <Rosie_0801@...>
                        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 4:11:46 AM
                        Subject: [sig] Re: Cross Osmorog

                        > What's a rocket herald?
                        > THL Isabelle de Foix
                        > Shire Brantestone
                        > Kingdom of Meridies
                        >

                        Oh, sorry, I thought we all had one. Rocket is the boss submissions
                        herald in Lochac. If I'm wrong, Asfridhr will correct me, I'm sure.
                        :)
                        Rosie





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                      • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 13, 2008
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                          <<Hey there Pan Zygmunt :)
                          By convincing, I mean something other than what Kevin suggested (thanks
                          anyway Kevin!) which I'd already found, and I know our rocket herald won't
                          be convinced by. Nice pretty pictures from a period example with dates is
                          exactly what I mean by convincing. Though, if your examples were that
                          convincing, why wasn't the college convinced? >>


                          This is what I *thought* I had! :) Why the various Herald offices weren't
                          convinced, I don't know. Such are the mysteries of Kingdom and Wreath. ;) If
                          you would like, I can scan what I have into a pdf and send it to you (or
                          anyone else who wants a copy)?

                          <<It doesn't look much like a crosses fourchy to me. I sure wish the lovely
                          person who made the http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm site provided
                          footnotes. I love footnotes.>>

                          I didn't think it looked much like a cross forchy (as originally submitted),
                          so a herald friend of mine re-drew it to more closely resemble a cross
                          fourchy. It passed, and I have taken artistic license ever since. :)

                          As for the Szlachta.org site - it doesn't have footnotes, but it does have
                          extensive end notes.

                          Here is part of my original research on these arms:

                          "*From:* David Zincavage < jdz@...>
                          *Subject:* Re: Gieralt clan arms
                          *Date:* Fri, 08 Mar 2002 08:54:33 -0800
                          *References:* <151.a12d033.29b9502e@...>
                          Piekosinski [Poczet rodo'w szlachty wiekow s'rednich, Lwo'w, 1911] records
                          the use of these arms by Jurek z Koconowa in 1384.

                          Wl/adysl/aw Semkowicz ["O pocza~kach rodu Geral/to'w i fundacyi klasztoru
                          Norbertano'w w Brzesku,", Miesie~cznik Heraldyczny, II/1909.] says it was
                          used 1361-1384."

                          And see -
                          "*From: "Leon Stevens" < **lstevens@...* <lstevens@...>*>

                          Subject: Re: Gieralt clan arms
                          Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 11:33:47 -0500*
                          The oldest surviving seals with these arms are the 1387 seal of Grzymala the
                          subaltern judge of Plack. (don't confuse his name with the clan of theat
                          name) and the 1402 seal of Maciej, the senior dean of St. Florian's in
                          Cracow. The oldest know court records mentioning these arms are one of 1361
                          and 1384. At the Union of Horodlo Mikolaj of Gorzkow, the Canon of Cracow
                          and from 1407 the Bishop of Wilno, adopted a Lithuanian boyar named Surgut.
                          A baptismal font in St Mary's Church in Siemiechow bears a carving of the
                          Gieralt arms. They are described in several old armorials including
                          Dlugosz's Klejnoty, the Bruxelles Armorial Lycenich, and the Stockholm Codex
                          Bergshammar. Early on this clan was most populous in the vicinities of
                          Cracow, Poznan, Sandomierz and Sieradz. During the Middle Ages this clan had
                          only two war-cries namely "Gieralt!" and "Rogow!" Later, "Osmorog!"("Eight
                          horns!"). Gieralt is also known as Ciecierza and Cietrzew ("heath cock," or
                          "black grouse!
                          "). It's charge is a barely disguised ancient abstract property marking.
                          "Gieralt" is a man's name, perhaps that of an ancient common ancestor. The
                          name is of Germanic origin ("Jerold," "Gerald"), although this man himself
                          may not have been German."

                          If you can read Polish, I highly recommend this - Paprocki, Bartosz*Herby
                          Rycerstwa Polskiego, *Biblioteka K�rnicka, Polskiej Akademii Nauk, 1988.


                          *G�rski, Carolus, ed.*
                          *Jana D�ugosza, Banderia Prutenorum,* Pa�stowe Wydawnictwo Naukowe, Warsaw,
                          1958.

                          For an English translation of Dlugosz's work, see - Andrzej Klein, Nicholas
                          Sekunda, Konrad A. Czernielewski - *"Banderia ap Grunwald: Choragwie Polskie
                          pod Grunwaldem 'Polish Banners at Grunwald, v.I".*, Alexander S.C., Lodz,
                          2002. However, unlike the Dlugosz work cited above, this is not a straight
                          translation, it has some additions by the author. So it is a good secondary
                          source, while the Dlugosz work is a direct translation and is a primary
                          source.

                          To see all of my original research on this, see this page -
                          http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/HERBARZ/2002-03/1015543342

                          I hope this helps!
                          --
                          Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, Editor, Artes Draconis
                          "Most people live their lives as if they had another one in the bank" - Ben
                          Irwin
                          "I Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" - Bob Seager
                          Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                          SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                          ... *cynical laugh* Well, I hope so too! I will appreciate any info you have and if you just happen to have any documentation for lekawicas in English, do let
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 14, 2008
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                            > To see all of my original research on this, see this page -
                            > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/HERBARZ/2002-03/1015543342
                            >
                            > I hope this helps!

                            *cynical laugh* Well, I hope so too! I will appreciate any info you
                            have and if you just happen to have any documentation for lekawicas in
                            English, do let me know. Asfridhr the Resourceful has found me some
                            interesting tidbits, but they all draw it like a W, instead of two
                            stuck together book-like things as on the Polish heraldry site.
                            *Optimistic tone* I will get it sorted out eventually!
                            :)
                            Rosie
                          • Seonaid13
                            Lady Marija: When did you schedule these classes for? I d like to be able to pimp Daily Life and Who lived where when? in my Embellishment tips for
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 26, 2008
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                              Lady Marija:

                              When did you schedule these classes for? I'd like to be able to
                              pimp 'Daily Life' and 'Who lived where when?' in my "Embellishment tips
                              for Russian Clothing" and "Early Russian History" classes respectively
                              (I'm teaching Embellisments on Tues&Thurs, and History on Wed, war
                              week). Particularly, I'd like to be able to point the folks in the
                              History class at your 'Who Lived Where When?' class, because that's an
                              aspect of Kievan history I'm going to sort of gloss over in my class
                              (I'm orienting more at the political/socio-economical nation-building
                              end).

                              Thanks,
                              Sfandra Dmitrieva


                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn Kinyon" <mamalynx@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Ok, I went and registered my classes and I will be teaching "Kievan
                              > Daily Life" and "Kievan Russ: Who lived where when?" The second is a
                              > class that will talk bit about how the tribes migrated and evolved. I
                              > will bring big maps so folks can see where a certain tribes were at
                              > certain times. This is intended to help with persona development.
                              >
                              > Lady Marija
                              >
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