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Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

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  • aldo
    Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and nobody even
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and
      habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and
      nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in
      Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were
      skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes
      etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget
      that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and
      whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very
      slow and full of backfalls.

      Aldo
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
      To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM
      Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...


      >
      >
      > Greetings!
      > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages
      too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I
      am well and deeply involved in it.
      > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical
      > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus
      > > and
      > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod
      > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles
      that I cannot list here.
      > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could
      have come across at least two of the three.
      >
      >
      > > Aldo
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: LiudmilaV@...
      > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM
      > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,
      ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --
      substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that
      demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky
      here.
      > >
      > > Liudmila
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
      > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am
      > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
      > >
      > > Greetings!
      > >
      > > ???????????
      > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.
      Linguistically, this
      > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,
      but no
      > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: LiudmilaV@...
      > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500
      > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
      > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book
      and see
      > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,
      a large
      > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in
      > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be
      ordering
      > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian
      book stores
      > > in LA carry it.
      > > >
      > > > Liudmila
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>
      > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am
      > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
      > > >
      > >
      > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been
      publiashed in
      > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the
      Bear in
      > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).
      The
      > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than
      the old
      > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently
      in the
      > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS
      WHERE THE
      > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the
      > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it
      appears as
      > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is
      very
      > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!
      > > >
      > > > What d'u think?
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > > __________________________________________________________
      > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
      http://webmail.aol.com
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • aldo
      It is a pity you are married to somebody who has another name but Alexei.Sorry for the confusion, I did not intend to offend anybody! Let us then find proofs.
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        It is a pity you are married to somebody who has another name but Alexei.Sorry for the confusion, I did not intend to offend anybody! Let us then find proofs. I'm starting as of the day after tomorrow as tomorrow I have to present my latest book and the day after tomorrow is Sunday here and I can start to dedicate myself to this study.

        Aldo
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: LiudmilaV@...
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:26 PM
        Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...



        I am not Alexei (though I am married to a different one), but Russan gypsies do hold on to their language and culture. So far some of your arguments below can be taken to support both the idea that skomorohi were Russianand the idea that they were foreign. However, if the assimilation is so painful, how did they speak excellent Russian to tell skazki to Ivan IV and others, and to be thought as originators and at the very least propagators of byliny?

        I think we won't be satisfied until we see some proof, not conjecture.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: aldo <turanomar@...>
        To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:12 am
        Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

        Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and
        habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and
        nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in
        Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were
        skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes
        etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget
        that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and
        whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very
        slow and full of backfalls.

        Aldo
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
        To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM
        Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages
        too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I
        am well and deeply involved in it.
        > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical
        > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus
        > > and
        > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod
        > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles
        that I cannot list here.
        > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could
        have come across at least two of the three.
        >
        >
        > > Aldo
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: LiudmilaV@...
        > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM
        > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,
        ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --
        substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that
        demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky
        here.
        > >
        > > Liudmila
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
        > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am
        > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
        > >
        > > Greetings!
        > >
        > > ???????????
        > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.
        Linguistically, this
        > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,
        but no
        > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: LiudmilaV@...
        > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500
        > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
        > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book
        and see
        > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,
        a large
        > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in
        > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be
        ordering
        > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian
        book stores
        > > in LA carry it.
        > > >
        > > > Liudmila
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > -----Original Message-----
        > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>
        > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am
        > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
        > > >
        > >
        > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been
        publiashed in
        > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the
        Bear in
        > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).
        The
        > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than
        the old
        > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently
        in the
        > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS
        WHERE THE
        > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the
        > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it
        appears as
        > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is
        very
        > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!
        > > >
        > > > What d'u think?
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > __________________________________________________________
        > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
        http://webmail.aol.com
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        __________________________________________________________
        More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • LiudmilaV@aol.com
        I am not Alexei (though I am married to a different one), but Russan gypsies do hold on to their language and culture. So far some of your arguments below can
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          I am not Alexei (though I am married to a different one), but Russan gypsies do hold on to their language and culture. So far some of your arguments below can be taken to support both the idea that skomorohi were Russianand the idea that they were foreign. However, if the assimilation is so painful, how did they speak excellent Russian to tell skazki to Ivan IV and others, and to be thought as originators and at the very least propagators of byliny?

          I think we won't be satisfied until we see some proof, not conjecture.







          -----Original Message-----
          From: aldo <turanomar@...>
          To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:12 am
          Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...










          Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and
          habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and
          nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in
          Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were
          skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes
          etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget
          that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and
          whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very
          slow and full of backfalls.

          Aldo
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
          To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM
          Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...


          >
          >
          > Greetings!
          > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages
          too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I
          am well and deeply involved in it.
          > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical
          > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus
          > > and
          > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod
          > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles
          that I cannot list here.
          > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could
          have come across at least two of the three.
          >
          >
          > > Aldo
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: LiudmilaV@...
          > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM
          > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,
          ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --
          substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that
          demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky
          here.
          > >
          > > Liudmila
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
          > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am
          > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
          > >
          > > Greetings!
          > >
          > > ???????????
          > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.
          Linguistically, this
          > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,
          but no
          > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: LiudmilaV@...
          > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500
          > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book
          and see
          > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,
          a large
          > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in
          > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be
          ordering
          > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian
          book stores
          > > in LA carry it.
          > > >
          > > > Liudmila
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>
          > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am
          > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
          > > >
          > >
          > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been
          publiashed in
          > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the
          Bear in
          > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).
          The
          > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than
          the old
          > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently
          in the
          > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS
          WHERE THE
          > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the
          > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it
          appears as
          > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is
          very
          > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!
          > > >
          > > > What d'u think?
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________________
          > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
          http://webmail.aol.com
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >




          Yahoo! Groups Links









          ________________________________________________________________________
          More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • LiudmilaV@aol.com
          N, no -- you addressed the question to the Alexei who is indeed on the list and part of the discussion. I usurped his answer, so specified I am not him. I am
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            N, no -- you addressed the question to the Alexei who is indeed on the list and part of the discussion. I usurped his answer, so specified I am not him. I am married to a different Alexei (who is not into this whole reenactment thing at all)? and was unsuccessfully trying to be funny.

            Liudmila







            -----Original Message-----
            From: aldo <turanomar@...>
            To: sig@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:24 am
            Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

























            It is a pity you are married to somebody who has another name but Alexei.Sorry for the confusion, I did not intend to offend anybody! Let us then find proofs. I'm starting as of the day after tomorrow as tomorrow I have to present my latest book and the day after tomorrow is Sunday here and I can start to dedicate myself to this study.



            Aldo

            ----- Original Message -----

            From: LiudmilaV@...

            To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:26 PM

            Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...



            I am not Alexei (though I am married to a different one), but Russan gypsies do hold on to their language and culture. So far some of your arguments below can be taken to support both the idea that skomorohi were Russianand the idea that they were foreign. However, if the assimilation is so painful, how did they speak excellent Russian to tell skazki to Ivan IV and others, and to be thought as originators and at the very least propagators of byliny?



            I think we won't be satisfied until we see some proof, not conjecture.



            -----Original Message-----

            From: aldo <turanomar@...>

            To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:12 am

            Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...



            Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and

            habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and

            nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in

            Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were

            skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes

            etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget

            that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and

            whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very

            slow and full of backfalls.



            Aldo

            ----- Original Message -----

            From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>

            To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>

            Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM

            Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...



            >

            >

            > Greetings!

            > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages

            too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I

            am well and deeply involved in it.

            > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical

            > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus

            > > and

            > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod

            > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles

            that I cannot list here.

            > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could

            have come across at least two of the three.

            >

            >

            > > Aldo

            > >

            > > ----- Original Message -----

            > > From: LiudmilaV@...

            > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM

            > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,

            ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --

            substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that

            demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky

            here.

            > >

            > > Liudmila

            > >

            > > -----Original Message-----

            > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>

            > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am

            > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

            > >

            > > Greetings!

            > >

            > > ???????????

            > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.

            Linguistically, this

            > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,

            but no

            > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.

            > >

            > > -----Original Message-----

            > > From: LiudmilaV@...

            > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500

            > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

            > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book

            and see

            > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,

            a large

            > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in

            > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be

            ordering

            > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian

            book stores

            > > in LA carry it.

            > > >

            > > > Liudmila

            > > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > >

            > > > -----Original Message-----

            > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>

            > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

            > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am

            > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

            > > >

            > >

            > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been

            publiashed in

            > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the

            Bear in

            > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).

            The

            > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than

            the old

            > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently

            in the

            > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS

            WHERE THE

            > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the

            > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it

            appears as

            > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is

            very

            > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!

            > > >

            > > > What d'u think?

            > > >

            > > >

            > >

            > > Yahoo! Groups Links

            > >

            > > __________________________________________________________

            > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

            http://webmail.aol.com

            > >

            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > >

            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            > >

            > >

            > >

            >

            >

            >

            > Yahoo! Groups Links

            >

            >

            >



            Yahoo! Groups Links



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          • aldo
            Then I would emphasize one point for the Alexei-on-the-list. If he is in Moscow he can find all kind of books and articles that can help him at the MGU or at
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Then I would emphasize one point for the Alexei-on-the-list. If he is in Moscow he can find all kind of books and articles that can help him at the MGU or at the National Library very easily... if he finds a patient librarian! I keep a great esteem of the Russian generally (including the peoples that belong to their history, of course) as they experimented all kinds of statehoods and organized society on their flesh becoming therefore an example for everybody in any sense, negative or positive one.Some studies that are coming up are really amateurial ones sometimes but very interesting as in many of them there is the inkling of novelty. It is worthwhile reading them!

              Aldo



              many of them----- Original Message -----
              From: LiudmilaV@...
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:46 PM
              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...



              N, no -- you addressed the question to the Alexei who is indeed on the list and part of the discussion. I usurped his answer, so specified I am not him. I am married to a different Alexei (who is not into this whole reenactment thing at all)? and was unsuccessfully trying to be funny.

              Liudmila

              -----Original Message-----
              From: aldo <turanomar@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:24 am
              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              It is a pity you are married to somebody who has another name but Alexei.Sorry for the confusion, I did not intend to offend anybody! Let us then find proofs. I'm starting as of the day after tomorrow as tomorrow I have to present my latest book and the day after tomorrow is Sunday here and I can start to dedicate myself to this study.

              Aldo

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: LiudmilaV@...

              To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 8:26 PM

              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              I am not Alexei (though I am married to a different one), but Russan gypsies do hold on to their language and culture. So far some of your arguments below can be taken to support both the idea that skomorohi were Russianand the idea that they were foreign. However, if the assimilation is so painful, how did they speak excellent Russian to tell skazki to Ivan IV and others, and to be thought as originators and at the very least propagators of byliny?

              I think we won't be satisfied until we see some proof, not conjecture.

              -----Original Message-----

              From: aldo <turanomar@...>

              To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:12 am

              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and

              habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and

              nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in

              Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were

              skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes

              etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget

              that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and

              whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very

              slow and full of backfalls.

              Aldo

              ----- Original Message -----

              From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>

              To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>

              Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM

              Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              >

              >

              > Greetings!

              > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages

              too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I

              am well and deeply involved in it.

              > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical

              > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus

              > > and

              > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod

              > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles

              that I cannot list here.

              > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could

              have come across at least two of the three.

              >

              >

              > > Aldo

              > >

              > > ----- Original Message -----

              > > From: LiudmilaV@...

              > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM

              > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,

              ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --

              substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that

              demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky

              here.

              > >

              > > Liudmila

              > >

              > > -----Original Message-----

              > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>

              > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am

              > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              > >

              > > Greetings!

              > >

              > > ???????????

              > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.

              Linguistically, this

              > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,

              but no

              > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.

              > >

              > > -----Original Message-----

              > > From: LiudmilaV@...

              > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500

              > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book

              and see

              > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,

              a large

              > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in

              > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be

              ordering

              > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian

              book stores

              > > in LA carry it.

              > > >

              > > > Liudmila

              > > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > >

              > > > -----Original Message-----

              > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>

              > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com

              > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am

              > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

              > > >

              > >

              > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been

              publiashed in

              > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the

              Bear in

              > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).

              The

              > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than

              the old

              > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently

              in the

              > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS

              WHERE THE

              > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the

              > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it

              appears as

              > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is

              very

              > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!

              > > >

              > > > What d'u think?

              > > >

              > > >

              > >

              > > Yahoo! Groups Links

              > >

              > > __________________________________________________________

              > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -

              http://webmail.aol.com

              > >

              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > >

              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              > >

              > >

              > >

              >

              >

              >

              > Yahoo! Groups Links

              >

              >

              >

              Yahoo! Groups Links

              __________________________________________________________

              More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
              Well, and the suggestion that as well not all the Skomorokhi were gypsies is no less likely. Anyhow, I need to check the info in the three books you
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Well, and the suggestion that as well not all the Skomorokhi were gypsies is no less likely. Anyhow, I need to check the info in the three books you mentioned, so I need the place and date of their publication.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: "aldo" <turanomar@...>
                To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:12:20 +0100
                Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...

                >
                > Dear Alexei, why do u think that gypsies must hold to their language and
                > habits? We have our Italian Gypsies who became Premiers in the past and
                > nobody even suspected they were Gypsies. Other like examples are extant in
                > Spain, etc. The Skomorokhi could have been gypsies but not all gypsies were
                > skomorokhi! The fact the skomorokhi were accpeted at Fairs, in the homes
                > etc. does not mean that they belonged to the community at all. Do not forget
                > that for the Slavs the guest is a holy person, wherever he comes from and
                > whoever are his ascendants. Anyhow the assimilation of foreigners is very
                > slow and full of backfalls.
                >
                > Aldo
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
                > To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:49 PM
                > Subject: Re[4]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
                >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Greetings!
                > > > OK, I am an historian but I am a specialist of the Russian Middle Ages
                > too and since there is a deep revision of the old Sovietic Historiography I
                > am well and deeply involved in it.
                > > > U can find about the Skomorohi in the classical
                > > > A.A. Korinfskii - Narodnaya Rus
                > > > and
                > > > M. Zabylin - Russkii Narod
                > > > and also in Ivanov - Mify Narodov Mira but there are also many articles
                > that I cannot list here.
                > > Could you give nme the full bibliographic data? I live in Moscow and could
                > have come across at least two of the three.
                > >
                > >
                > > > Aldo
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: LiudmilaV@...
                > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 7:28 PM
                > > > Subject: Re: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I have not heard such because I have little interest in the subject,
                > ordinarily, I am afraid. But what you are saying is exactly my issue --
                > substantiation of the claim. I am a scientist by profession, in a field that
                > demands experimental research to validate a theory, so I may be too picky
                > here.
                > > >
                > > > Liudmila
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:20 am
                > > > Subject: Re[2]: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
                > > >
                > > > Greetings!
                > > >
                > > > ???????????
                > > > It is a VERY old theory, surprised you never heard such.
                > Linguistically, this
                > > > explanation of POSSIBLE "forbidden true name of the bear" is correct,
                > but no
                > > > evidence that Rus really meant "Bear land" is yet given.
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: LiudmilaV@...
                > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:04:01 -0500
                > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
                > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Personally, I would decline to have an opinion until I read the book
                > and see
                > > > for myself whether it is indeed well documented. In the recent years,
                > a large
                > > > number of publications were produced in Russia that are rather low in
                > > > scholarship but make sometimes outrageous claims. Next time I will be
                > ordering
                > > > from ozon.ru, I will get that book as well unless any of the Russian
                > book stores
                > > > in LA carry it.
                > > > >
                > > > > Liudmila
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: aldo <turanomar@...>
                > > > > To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > Sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 9:44 am
                > > > > Subject: Re: [sig] possibly obscure Russian question...
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > > I would like to add to this topic the following. Lately has been
                > publiashed in
                > > > Russia a very well-made research on the cult and rites concerning the
                > Bear in
                > > > the North of the European and Asiatic continent (LEONTEV & LEONTEV).
                > The
                > > > research was aimed to conclude that the name RUS' is nothing more than
                > the old
                > > > Russian (but disappeared because tabooized) name of the BEAR.Presently
                > in the
                > > > Slavic and Slavo-Baltic languages the BEAR is called HE WHO KNOWS
                > WHERE THE
                > > > HONEY IS or MEDVED' while in the Germanic languages it appears as the
                > > > BROWN-COLORED ONE (Bear etc.). In the the restant IE languages it
                > appears as
                > > > URSUS/ARCTOS/ARTOS/RKS'AS/RSUS/ROKS and therefore the hypothesis is
                > very
                > > > interesting and, in my opinion, very reliable and close to the truth!
                > > > >
                > > > > What d'u think?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > >
                > > > __________________________________________________________
                > > > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
                > http://webmail.aol.com
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
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