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blackening teeth was Note to self, avoid Muscovite women.

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  • bphall76@aol.com
    The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side effect of whatever the women were using to whiten their faces.But, I ve been wrong before. Vasilisa Myshkina
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 21, 2007
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      The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side effect of whatever the
      women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've been wrong before.

      Vasilisa Myshkina



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    • Tim Nalley
      Thats interesting! I know that alot of those compounds had mercury in them and trace amounts of arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea! ...
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 21, 2007
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        Thats interesting! I know that alot of those compounds
        had mercury in them and trace amounts of
        arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
        --- bphall76@... wrote:

        > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
        > effect of whatever the
        > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
        > been wrong before.
        >
        > Vasilisa Myshkina
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


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      • L.M. Kies
        Blackened teeth has never been on my list of signs of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 21, 2007
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          "Blackened teeth" has never been on my list of signs of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute gastrointestinal effects, and for clearing the complexion *heh* not blackening teeth. A brief review of POISINDEX confirms a lack of "blackening" side effects for these three substances.

          I don't know if lead oxide face paint, or cinnabar rouge would turn black on contact with saliva - not too many experiments like that getting published in the medical literature for some reason. :-)

          Any chemists around?

          Sofya

          >------- Original Message ------->
          >Thats interesting! I know that alot of those compounds
          had mercury in them and trace amounts of
          arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
          --- bphall76@... wrote:

          > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
          > effect of whatever the
          > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
          > been wrong before.
          >
          > Vasilisa Myshkina




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jennifer knox
          Until recently I know that Japanese Geisha blackened their teeth, and that this wasn t an effect of any facial cosmetics. I m wondering if what they used was
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 22, 2007
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            Until recently I know that Japanese Geisha blackened their teeth, and that this wasn't an effect of any facial cosmetics. I'm wondering if what they used was the same as what the Muscovite women were using?
            I would soooo love to do this for court with my Muscovite garb!
            Anya

            "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
            "Blackened teeth" has never been on my list of signs of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute gastrointestinal effects, and for clearing the complexion *heh* not blackening teeth. A brief review of POISINDEX confirms a lack of "blackening" side effects for these three substances.

            I don't know if lead oxide face paint, or cinnabar rouge would turn black on contact with saliva - not too many experiments like that getting published in the medical literature for some reason. :-)

            Any chemists around?

            Sofya

            >------- Original Message ------->
            >Thats interesting! I know that alot of those compounds
            had mercury in them and trace amounts of
            arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
            --- bphall76@... wrote:

            > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
            > effect of whatever the
            > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
            > been wrong before.
            >
            > Vasilisa Myshkina

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            "We must judge men not so much by what they do, as by what they make us feel that they have it in them to do." --Samuel Butler

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          • Iustin Branov
            Biochem major. Does that count? I decided to do a quick look to see what I could find. Apparently, there is older research that shows a lead blue line
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 24, 2007
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              Biochem major. Does that count? I decided to do a
              quick look to see what I could find. Apparently,
              there is older research that shows a 'lead blue' line
              bordering between the neck and the jaw from contact
              between lead oxide and saliva. I have found nothing
              about blackened teeth, however. As it turns out,
              however, there was apparently medical research done on
              the interaction of lead oxide in the salivary glands
              in the mid-19th century.

              Iustin

              --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

              > "Blackened teeth" has never been on my list of signs
              > of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the
              > detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute
              > gastrointestinal effects, and for clearing the
              > complexion *heh* not blackening teeth. A brief
              > review of POISINDEX confirms a lack of "blackening"
              > side effects for these three substances.
              >
              > I don't know if lead oxide face paint, or cinnabar
              > rouge would turn black on contact with saliva - not
              > too many experiments like that getting published in
              > the medical literature for some reason. :-)
              >
              > Any chemists around?
              >
              > Sofya
              >
              > >------- Original Message ------->
              > >Thats interesting! I know that alot of those
              > compounds
              > had mercury in them and trace amounts of
              > arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
              > --- bphall76@... wrote:
              >
              > > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
              > > effect of whatever the
              > > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
              > > been wrong before.
              > >
              > > Vasilisa Myshkina
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >



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            • history_writer978
              Mercury was used to treat syphilis, which would turn saliva black. I m not sure if that would also turn teeth black. ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 26, 2007
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                Mercury was used to treat syphilis, which would turn saliva black.
                I'm not sure if that would also turn teeth black.

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Iustin Branov <iustinbranov@...> wrote:
                >
                > Biochem major. Does that count? I decided to do a
                > quick look to see what I could find. Apparently,
                > there is older research that shows a 'lead blue' line
                > bordering between the neck and the jaw from contact
                > between lead oxide and saliva. I have found nothing
                > about blackened teeth, however. As it turns out,
                > however, there was apparently medical research done on
                > the interaction of lead oxide in the salivary glands
                > in the mid-19th century.
                >
                > Iustin
                >
                > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:
                >
                > > "Blackened teeth" has never been on my list of signs
                > > of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the
                > > detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute
                > > gastrointestinal effects, and for clearing the
                > > complexion *heh* not blackening teeth. A brief
                > > review of POISINDEX confirms a lack of "blackening"
                > > side effects for these three substances.
                > >
                > > I don't know if lead oxide face paint, or cinnabar
                > > rouge would turn black on contact with saliva - not
                > > too many experiments like that getting published in
                > > the medical literature for some reason. :-)
                > >
                > > Any chemists around?
                > >
                > > Sofya
                > >
                > > >------- Original Message ------->
                > > >Thats interesting! I know that alot of those
                > > compounds
                > > had mercury in them and trace amounts of
                > > arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
                > > --- bphall76@... wrote:
                > >
                > > > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
                > > > effect of whatever the
                > > > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
                > > > been wrong before.
                > > >
                > > > Vasilisa Myshkina
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
              • Rick Orli
                The increasingly useful Google Book Search... try: black teeth muscovite find full text for Women in Russian History, from the 10th to the 20th Century.
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 26, 2007
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                  The increasingly useful Google Book Search... try:
                  "black teeth" muscovite
                  find full text for Women in Russian History, from the 10th to the
                  20th Century.

                  Reports that the custom was not long lived, it says only half century
                  but I would say that the text otherwise implies that it was at least
                  1600 on and the report quoted in the peter the great book dated from
                  the 1690s.
                  -Rick

                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "history_writer978"
                  <history_writer978@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Mercury was used to treat syphilis, which would turn saliva black.
                  > I'm not sure if that would also turn teeth black.
                  >
                  > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Iustin Branov <iustinbranov@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Biochem major. Does that count? I decided to do a
                  > > quick look to see what I could find. Apparently,
                  > > there is older research that shows a 'lead blue' line
                  > > bordering between the neck and the jaw from contact
                  > > between lead oxide and saliva. I have found nothing
                  > > about blackened teeth, however. As it turns out,
                  > > however, there was apparently medical research done on
                  > > the interaction of lead oxide in the salivary glands
                  > > in the mid-19th century.
                  > >
                  > > Iustin
                  > >
                  > > --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > "Blackened teeth" has never been on my list of signs
                  > > > of mercury or lead poisoning. And according to the
                  > > > detective novels, arsenic is known for its acute
                  > > > gastrointestinal effects, and for clearing the
                  > > > complexion *heh* not blackening teeth. A brief
                  > > > review of POISINDEX confirms a lack of "blackening"
                  > > > side effects for these three substances.
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't know if lead oxide face paint, or cinnabar
                  > > > rouge would turn black on contact with saliva - not
                  > > > too many experiments like that getting published in
                  > > > the medical literature for some reason. :-)
                  > > >
                  > > > Any chemists around?
                  > > >
                  > > > Sofya
                  > > >
                  > > > >------- Original Message ------->
                  > > > >Thats interesting! I know that alot of those
                  > > > compounds
                  > > > had mercury in them and trace amounts of
                  > > > arsenic.....sounds like an interesting article idea!
                  > > > --- bphall76@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > The way I remember it, blackened teeth was a side
                  > > > > effect of whatever the
                  > > > > women were using to whiten their faces.But, I've
                  > > > > been wrong before.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Vasilisa Myshkina
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > > removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  _____________________________________________________________________
                  > _______________
                  > > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                  > > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                  > http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                  > >
                  >
                • Rick Orli
                  its on page 115. A contempory source on black teeth is Samual Collins, who was traveling in the late 1630s... his book is a great read on muscovy, and is also
                  Message 8 of 12 , Dec 27, 2007
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                    its on page 115. A contempory source on black teeth is Samual Collins,
                    who was traveling in the late 1630s... his book is a great read on
                    muscovy, and is also online in google books, partially.

                    I'm glad that we do 17th C.! In our public events, Generally, the more
                    a member of our modern audience thinks something is outrageous and
                    astonishing, the more likely they are to let their guard down and to
                    come over and engage with us. A beautiful lady with black teeth would
                    do it for sure.

                    also: Jiri David Czech Catholic missionary, late 1600s
                    They "pluck their eyebrows in a surprising manner with some sort of
                    powder, and then they draw them back on with black paint in a semi-
                    circular shape," higher up than the natural brow, "so that their hats
                    almost touch their eyebrows"
                    -Rick

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Orli" <orlirva@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The increasingly useful Google Book Search... try:
                    > "black teeth" muscovite
                    > find full text for Women in Russian History, from the 10th to the
                    > 20th Century.
                    >
                    > Reports that the custom was not long lived, it says only half century
                    > but I would say that the text otherwise implies that it was at least
                    > 1600 on and the report quoted in the peter the great book dated from
                    > the 1690s.
                    > -Rick
                    >
                  • panimagdalena56
                    http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm I contacted an acquaintance who is very knowledgeable in medieval Japan culture. The above link is a good link and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Dec 28, 2007
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                      http://www.wodefordhall.com/display.htm

                      I contacted an acquaintance who is very knowledgeable in medieval
                      Japan culture. The above link is a good link and tells about Japanese
                      women also blackening their teeth with iron shavings, vinegar and oak
                      gall. Scroll down to the section on beauty. It reads very much like
                      Rik's selection on Muscovite women.

                      Magdalena
                    • quokkaqueen
                      Modernly, mercury-silver dental almalgams seem to be a reason for teeth being stained brown-black over time. But I can only find information about that on
                      Message 10 of 12 , Dec 28, 2007
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                        Modernly, mercury-silver dental almalgams seem to be a reason for
                        teeth being stained brown-black over time. But I can only find
                        information about that on websites for dentists who are also promoting
                        teeth-whitening so I'm skeptical until I see a better source.

                        Still on the Asian version of the procedure, there is a photo and some
                        information about Vietnamese women here:
                        http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1296

                        Also, there is some general information about cultures that practiced
                        teeth-blackening here:
                        Medical Botany: Plants Affecting Human Health
                        The chapter on Oral Hygeine has some information, and discusses
                        studies that showed that staining teeth with iron may actually have
                        prevented tooth decay.
                        http://books.google.com/books?id=ipQmSriMF9sC&pg=PA379&dq=iron+teeth+black&sig=PEoAs4B6cpotNjbUXAYaq-F-ARI
                        or http://snipurl.com/1vyjp

                        However, the above is only a preview and I have no idea if it goes on
                        to discuss Europe.

                        Adding to the general confusion of the discussion,
                        Asfridhr

                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "history_writer978"
                        <history_writer978@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Mercury was used to treat syphilis, which would turn saliva black.
                        > I'm not sure if that would also turn teeth black.
                        <snip>
                      • L.M. Kies
                        Greetings from Sofya! ... Well, that makes much more sense than lead or mercury. After all, iron compounds and oak galls are the standard ingredients of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Dec 29, 2007
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                          Greetings from Sofya!

                          >------- Original Message -------
                          >Japanese women also blackening their teeth with iron shavings, vinegar and oak
                          >gall. ..

                          Well, that makes much more sense than lead or mercury. After all, iron compounds and oak galls are the standard ingredients of medieval inks. Putting ink on one's teeth to blacken them is a much more obvious technique to try than hoping that grey/white lead compounds, or reddish-grayish mercury compounds turn black on the teeth.

                          http://home.insightbb.com/~denevell_books/ferrogallic_ink.htm

                          Sofya

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
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                        • David H.
                          Happy New Year Best wishes, Andrukh (Andrei Iosifev syn) PS: am I getting my name right? _________________________________________________________________ Get
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jan 1, 2008
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                            Happy New Year


                            Best wishes,
                            Andrukh
                            (Andrei Iosifev syn)


                            PS: am I getting my name right?
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