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Re: [sig] possibly politically incorrect

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  • LiudmilaV@aol.com
    As a child made to read that book, I hated it with a passion. Oh well, he was a good if misguided writer, and there is a reason I left Ukraine... Liudmila,
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 26, 2007
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      As a child made to read that book, I hated it with a passion. Oh well, he was a good if misguided writer, and there is a reason I left Ukraine...

      Liudmila,
      mundanely an Ashkenazi Jew







      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rick Orli <orlirva@...>
      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 1:45 pm
      Subject: [sig] possibly politically incorrect

























      Gogol's Taras Bulba, Trailer.

      > > http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=GZHA9tHvzCk





















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    • Jeanne
      Does anyone know if there are English subtitles? Rick Orli wrote: Gogol s Taras Bulba, Trailer. ... Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 26, 2007
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        Does anyone know if there are English subtitles?



        Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
        Gogol's Taras Bulba, Trailer.
        > > http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=GZHA9tHvzCk






        ---------------------------------
        Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account!

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      • Rick Orli
        Last week I gave a presentation to a 4th Grade class on Capt John Smith (of Pochohantas fame) & the Ottomans, and also about the Polish and Swiss and Dutchmen
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 26, 2007
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          Last week I gave a presentation to a 4th Grade class on Capt' John
          Smith (of Pochohantas fame) & the Ottomans, and also about the Polish
          and Swiss and Dutchmen or German craftsmen in early Jamestown and
          their industry. Had costumes for the kids and a bit of a skit going,
          great fun. A little girl actually asked if my (1610 english) costume
          was Polish, and if not what would it have looked like (bless her).

          Anyway, several kids volunteered that what they really were interested
          in were the Spartans and Persians. OK, 300 is an R movie, but I
          figured thats where they got that from so this weekend -to keep
          culturally in tune with my audience - I rented the DVD.

          300 was quite a trip, but I have to say I was taken aback by the
          imagery of the Persians and easterners.. a bunch of dark evil
          towelheads, in a cartooney evil way. I'm not much into political
          correctness (speaking of) but as an eastern european and now ottoman
          reenactor I rather try to work against that unhelpful stereotype.

          Then there were the immortal ninjas. Yeah, I know, it was a graphic
          novel.
          -Rick


          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wow! "Taras Bulba" in a modern adaptation. Not quite "300" or
          > "Beowulf", but very very cool....
        • Tim Nalley
          Whew! PC in history....the ultimate slippery slope! Most of actual history, absent the political whitewash of the victors is politically incorrect because
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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            Whew! PC in history....the ultimate slippery slope!

            Most of actual history, absent the political whitewash
            of the victors is politically incorrect because people
            are by nature. Politically correct is to history what
            religion is to science, a belief not based on fact but
            on personal slant. Its a spin and thats why we dig for
            the historical fact, to get beneath the spin of the
            victors!

            I actually liked Taras Bulba, but I saw it as a
            snapshot of that time and place and mindset, and thats
            of interest to me as a historian. It might give me the
            willies as a person but thats immaterial to seeing
            history as arecord of conflicting viewpoints. I
            thought that he addressed the issues of Jews, "The
            Darks" and and ethnic Russians quite well.

            Why do I have an interest? 10 years ago I had spent a
            couple years as the US citizenship test toner for 40
            or so elderly "Russians" from Kiev, through a
            co-worker's synogogue. Usual story, kids came, then
            they brought their families, and finally their parents
            came over. I was the one that pried the recalcitrant
            ones out of their apartments and drilled them
            mercilessly every Tuesday night to actually pass both
            parts of the US citizenship test. All but two did
            eventually, but they escaped me to the hereafter and
            no longer had to pass any test.

            Without exception, they were the ones in their
            families who had fled East when the Nazis came, some
            hearing tanks and german language as they did. The
            ones who stayed disappeared, probably in Baba Yar.
            Some where even told that from nieghbors they found
            after the war.

            Even though most of my students had been wounded in
            the war and the "younger" ones had worked 16-18 hour
            days in the factories east of the Urals as kids, all
            were quite optimistic, and they were all realists
            without exception or apology. Not that they opened up
            very quickly but when they did they reminded me of
            Americans in a strange way. Tough, humorous, wry,
            optimistic and kind but with a sadder, harsher
            history. Mostly, I liked how they could be strong yet
            kind, optimistic yet blunt realists. They had real
            reasons to be bitter, pessimistic, negative but they
            had left it behind in Russia. Thier words.

            The point is this. History is a record, hopefully
            factual but mostly sanitized and whitewashed. The
            history is there if you dig hard enough and accept the
            facts as they prove themselves true, absent your
            personal slant. Thats what my students taught me, who
            scoffed openly at the very idea of PC as completely
            unrealistic. You decide. Its all history, after all.
            'dok

            Best Regards,
            'dok
            "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


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          • Patricia Hefner
            Yeah, history is politically incorrect. It s full of atrocities and depressing stuff. My degree is in history. Isabelle de Foix Kingdom of Meridies Support
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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              Yeah, history is politically incorrect. It's full of atrocities and depressing stuff. My degree is in history.

              Isabelle de Foix
              Kingdom of Meridies

              Support your friendly local autistics....I'm one of them



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Tim Nalley <mordakus@...>
              To: sig@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:02:16 AM
              Subject: [sig] sad, but history is politically incorrect!

              Whew! PC in history....the ultimate slippery slope!

              Most of actual history, absent the political whitewash
              of the victors is politically incorrect because people
              are by nature. Politically correct is to history what
              religion is to science, a belief not based on fact but
              on personal slant. Its a spin and thats why we dig for
              the historical fact, to get beneath the spin of the
              victors!

              I actually liked Taras Bulba, but I saw it as a
              snapshot of that time and place and mindset, and thats
              of interest to me as a historian. It might give me the
              willies as a person but thats immaterial to seeing
              history as arecord of conflicting viewpoints. I
              thought that he addressed the issues of Jews, "The
              Darks" and and ethnic Russians quite well.

              Why do I have an interest? 10 years ago I had spent a
              couple years as the US citizenship test toner for 40
              or so elderly "Russians" from Kiev, through a
              co-worker's synogogue. Usual story, kids came, then
              they brought their families, and finally their parents
              came over. I was the one that pried the recalcitrant
              ones out of their apartments and drilled them
              mercilessly every Tuesday night to actually pass both
              parts of the US citizenship test. All but two did
              eventually, but they escaped me to the hereafter and
              no longer had to pass any test.

              Without exception, they were the ones in their
              families who had fled East when the Nazis came, some
              hearing tanks and german language as they did. The
              ones who stayed disappeared, probably in Baba Yar.
              Some where even told that from nieghbors they found
              after the war.

              Even though most of my students had been wounded in
              the war and the "younger" ones had worked 16-18 hour
              days in the factories east of the Urals as kids, all
              were quite optimistic, and they were all realists
              without exception or apology. Not that they opened up
              very quickly but when they did they reminded me of
              Americans in a strange way. Tough, humorous, wry,
              optimistic and kind but with a sadder, harsher
              history. Mostly, I liked how they could be strong yet
              kind, optimistic yet blunt realists. They had real
              reasons to be bitter, pessimistic, negative but they
              had left it behind in Russia. Thier words.

              The point is this. History is a record, hopefully
              factual but mostly sanitized and whitewashed. The
              history is there if you dig hard enough and accept the
              facts as they prove themselves true, absent your
              personal slant. Thats what my students taught me, who
              scoffed openly at the very idea of PC as completely
              unrealistic. You decide. Its all history, after all.
              'dok

              Best Regards,
              'dok
              "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul W Goldschmidt
              Mordak, At the risk of veering us slightly off-topic, I think you are overstating your argument when you say at the beginning of your (otherwise excellent)
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                Mordak,

                At the risk of veering us slightly off-topic, I think you are
                overstating your argument when you say at the beginning of your
                (otherwise excellent) essay:

                "Most of actual history, absent the political whitewash
                of the victors is politically incorrect because people
                are by nature. Politically correct is to history what
                religion is to science, a belief not based on fact but
                on personal slant. Its a spin and thats why we dig for
                the historical fact, to get beneath the spin of the
                victors!"

                You are misunderstanding the purpose behind the PC-movement. It's
                not to deny that atrocities happened, but to focus on how we treat
                them in the future. No one but a fool would deny that anti-semitism
                existed in period and I don't think there is a problem with depicting
                that it happened. Glorifying it or saying it was a good thing would
                be problematic. The idea of "PC" is that we focus on presenting the
                past factually but also stating that we would not approve of the same
                things in the present or the future.

                The "belief" (such as it is) is that social justice for the future is
                a factor of acknowledging the injustice of the past. That it is spin
                is conscious (a lot more conscious that allegedly "objective"
                historians) but driven by noble intentions.

                It's not really a "religion" and your comparison is not valid as
                science and history have little in common.

                All of that said, I agree that Taras Bulba has tremendous historical
                significance and (as long as the film does not glorify anti-semetism)
                it will be a useful addition.

                -- Paul


                At 08:02 AM 11/27/2007, you wrote:

                >Whew! PC in history....the ultimate slippery slope!
                >
                >Most of actual history, absent the political whitewash
                >of the victors is politically incorrect because people
                >are by nature. Politically correct is to history what
                >religion is to science, a belief not based on fact but
                >on personal slant. Its a spin and thats why we dig for
                >the historical fact, to get beneath the spin of the
                >victors!
              • Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                One thing to remember about the Persians in the Movie 300, is that the film crew made them look that weird to make them shocking to modern eyes. Because the
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                  One thing to remember about the Persians in the Movie 300, is that the film
                  crew made them look that weird to make them shocking to modern eyes. Because
                  the real Persians were just as shocking to the Greek Spartans, because -
                  THEY WORE PANTS!!!!!!

                  ;)

                  --
                  Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                  "Most people live their lives as if they had another one in the bank" - Ben
                  Irwin
                  "I do not fear death or pain, only a cage. To stay behind bars, until use
                  and old age accept them, and all chance of valor has gone beyond recall or
                  desire." Eowyn, The Return of the King
                  Servant of His Grace Sir Dag Thorgrimsson and Master Mordok Rostovskogo
                  SCA Polish Culture Resource: http://www.plcommonwealth.org


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tim Nalley
                  I agree with both of you. Where I differ, respectfully, in viewpoint is that my focus is more immediate in nature. If the naked hairless monkey is known and
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                    I agree with both of you. Where I differ,
                    respectfully, in viewpoint is that my focus is more
                    immediate in nature. If the naked hairless monkey is
                    known and accepted as fact then it looses its power an
                    elephant in the room and the conversation can get much
                    better. And it needs to.

                    The comparison was religion with science as a simile
                    to that of PC with history, and then limited to
                    specific examples of passionately held belief vs.
                    verifiable or empiracal fact. Thats a quite a common
                    tool employed among historians because the paradigm
                    makes students actually think deeper than the dogma
                    they've been taught, but in an analytical, critical
                    and cultural fashion to defend them! I hear that in
                    Poly Sci they use patriotism in place of PC.

                    In a strange way, the darker parts of history spawned
                    the lighter parts that followed in reaction
                    afterwards. Thats the true secret taught us by
                    history. In a theorhetical sense, think of the
                    benefits we get from Greece democracy theory, Roman
                    rationalism and order, Francis Bacon and Arab
                    scholarship, the Enlightenment, public facilities and
                    security, the world as a close community....all were
                    reactions to dark periods, often in conjunction with
                    the rise of the next dark period. History has some
                    strange pathwways but thats the strength too. Steps
                    after stumbles. Lessons learned from failures.

                    One could even say that the SCA and our efforts in SIG
                    is also a light period in reaction to a dark one?
                    'dok

                    Best Regards,
                    'dok
                    "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


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                  • Leonid Akulov
                    ... Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:

                      > In a strange way, the darker parts of history spawned
                      > the lighter parts that followed in reaction
                      > afterwards. Thats the true secret taught us by
                      > history.

                      "Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they
                      had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced
                      Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland
                      they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace,
                      and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Harry Lime, The Third
                      Man

                      And I think your comparison of PC to religion really nails it.

                      P.S. Although you probably mean the real life version of PC, the way
                      it works in reality, now, in the US of A. The way it was intended to
                      work is probably as different from what we see as GULAG was from the
                      utopias described in Soviet literature of that time. Just another
                      thing that "musta be working but she ain't". Leave it to the real
                      world to maim and mangle every perfect theoretical concept thrown
                      into it... :)
                    • Paul W Goldschmidt
                      Hi Mordak, I m not really following your first paragraph. Could I get you to restate it? ... First of all, no professional historian would speak in terms of
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                        Hi Mordak,

                        I'm not really following your first paragraph. Could I get you to restate it?

                        >I agree with both of you. Where I differ,
                        >respectfully, in viewpoint is that my focus is more
                        >immediate in nature. If the naked hairless monkey is
                        >known and accepted as fact then it looses its power an
                        >elephant in the room and the conversation can get much
                        >better. And it needs to.
                        >
                        >The comparison was religion with science as a simile
                        >to that of PC with history, and then limited to
                        >specific examples of passionately held belief vs.
                        >verifiable or empiracal fact. Thats a quite a common
                        >tool employed among historians because the paradigm
                        >makes students actually think deeper than the dogma
                        >they've been taught, but in an analytical, critical
                        >and cultural fashion to defend them! I hear that in
                        >Poly Sci they use patriotism in place of PC.

                        First of all, no professional historian would speak in terms of
                        "verifiability" or "empirical fact" -- those are terms used by
                        amateurs. A historian who spoke that way would be laughed out of the
                        Tower and rejected as a throw back to 19th century
                        historiography. So, I'm going to reject your hyperbole about "common
                        tool" because I think you misunderstand the difference between what
                        goes on in Intro to World Civ classes and what historians do.

                        What a historian should be teaching is that "facts" are often a
                        result of dogma and thus are inherently suspect. But rather than
                        become nihilists, what we should do is approach everything "factual"
                        with skepticism, trying to understand the motivations and movements
                        that underlie the dates and names.

                        I think that you and I are in agreement about the basic premise, but
                        I'm not happy with the way you are oversimplifying what historians
                        do. The only parallel between science and history is that the
                        researcher must acknowledge bias and approach with the soul of a
                        skeptic to be good at what they do. But the hard sciences and the
                        "soft" sciences (history, poli sci, sociology, and probably economics
                        and psychology as well [although that is a heated debate]) share very
                        little else in common. No physicist would employ narrative
                        techniques or psychotherapy to analyze the splitting of an atom. In
                        history, there are no precise tools, no measures, and relatively
                        little that we can be certain of. The only key is what the oracle at
                        Delphi said ("Know Yourself").

                        I have no idea what "I hear that in Poly [sic] Sci they use
                        patriotism in place of PC" means, but it's throwaway rhetoric a
                        mildly inflammatory to anyone who has seriously studied politics and
                        government.

                        The darkness vs light discussion is interesting but reminds me a bit
                        much of Babylon 5 (which I'm in the process of
                        re-watching). Education as a whole is about seeking enlightenment,
                        exploring and discussing ideas (even concepts like "political
                        correctness"), and distilling and analyzing them for elements of
                        utility. I believe that is what you were saying, but I don't believe
                        that it comes in waves. I think it is a continual process.


                        Thank you,
                        Paul
                      • L.M. Kies
                        ... There is a lot of uncertainty even in the hard sciences. What makes the hard sciences more objective (relatively speaking) is that scientific problems
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                          >The only parallel between science and history is that the
                          >researcher must acknowledge bias and approach with the soul of a
                          >skeptic to be good at what they do. But the hard sciences and the
                          >"soft" sciences (history, poli sci, sociology, and probably economics
                          >and psychology as well [although that is a heated debate]) share very
                          >little else in common. No physicist would employ narrative
                          >techniques or psychotherapy to analyze the splitting of an atom. In
                          >history, there are no precise tools, no measures, and relatively
                          >little that we can be certain of.

                          There is a lot of uncertainty even in the hard sciences. What makes the "hard" sciences more objective (relatively speaking) is that scientific problems are more easily reduced to small, controllable, repeatedly-testible pieces. But those manageable pieces sometimes leave you with the "blind men and the elephant problem" (the guy at the tail says it's a rope, the guy at the leg says it's a tree trunk, the guy at the ear calls it a giant leaf, etc.)

                          All experiments are vulnerable to various biases and errors. Any high school or college chemistry student who's had to calculate "experimental error" has been faced with how easy it is to mess up an experiment even when you know exactly what the outcome should be (25g of X plus 20 g of Y should produce exactly 27g of Z), much less when you're truly trying to make new discoveries.

                          The interpretation of results is even more difficult. One of the last sections in a scientific paper is the "Discussion" of why the results turned out the way they did, and what experiments are planned to prove it. This "Discussion" generates most of the comments and criticisms of a paper.

                          And then there's the problem of application. Just because a drug is shown to help middle-class white males decrease their cholesterol, doesn't mean it will decrease their risk of heart attack, nor does it therefore mean they will live longer/healthier (which is the real goal). Nor if it will work for women, or obese adolescents, or Asians.

                          We'd like to think that the "hard" sciences are objective, but most of them aren't really - a sobering thought for those of us who dabble in any field of research, modern or medieval.

                          At your service,

                          Sofya

                          --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                          Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                          http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                          "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tim Nalley
                          OK. This discussion jumped the shark but I ll play one more round if our hostage audience isn t too bored by our pontification! If so, everyone please accept
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                            OK. This discussion jumped the shark but I'll play one
                            more round if our hostage audience isn't too bored by
                            our pontification! If so, everyone please accept my
                            apology for being an argumentative idiot. But I do
                            love debate....what, you haven't deled already? Just
                            joking.

                            Interesting viewpoint, and you have some very good
                            ideas there. I am troubled by your lack of paradigms
                            though. I have heard quite a few professional
                            historians argue along these same lines but that is
                            immaterial.

                            We both seem to be skeptics of one ilk or another but
                            as for being laughed out of the Tower, you would be
                            surprised. I was. History is the science of cynicism
                            and skepticism made practice. No sacred cows. No
                            unassailable towers. No theories free of modification.
                            Thats what attracted me to a useless degree and then
                            the law afterwards. The rules are the same in both.
                            Pure rational reason, leavened with the reality that
                            all the source material is biased to one degree or
                            another. Free rein, or reign, depending on tenure or
                            partnership.

                            Its when you try to dogmatize and codify one of those
                            theories that you get the invisible elephant in the
                            room paradigm. Everyone sees the glaring
                            inconsistencies but no one will talk about it in an
                            effort not to be attacked by a believer. My paradigm
                            about the hairless monkey is elliterary to the reality
                            that most human beings, now and in the past, operate
                            on a daily basis in favor of thier own interests and
                            biases. Their accounts are the literary documents
                            historian utilize to "prove" their own theory de jure
                            or "dis-prove" those of their rivals.

                            As long as you pretend that this situation doesn't
                            exist, you have to do increasingly erratic and extreme
                            convulutions to prop up your theories / dogma /
                            codified speculation. Those convolutions are the
                            invisible elephant in the room. Avoidance gives it
                            power to control your actions. Acceptance takes that
                            power away. Hence the seperation of church and state
                            codified in the US Constitution to eliminate stae
                            sponsored religion.

                            But the differences between the sciences are
                            speculation at the very best, usually based upon which
                            pays your particular bills. A physicist actually told
                            me that, but he specialized in quantum particulate
                            blablah theory, but as he freely stated all
                            physicists are crazy at their core. These other
                            sciences, the soft sciences, are all elephants in the
                            room. They all have a mixed bag of effects and are
                            biased towards who pays the bills. Call that pay
                            tenure, grants, gifts, donations, patrons, clients,
                            patients, etc. each has an effect on the science in
                            question, usually through each independent
                            practitioner. You know that. I know that too.

                            As any 100 level philosophy student can tell you
                            "there are no absolutes". So facts are thoeries
                            awaiting new information to be either updated or
                            modified or scrapped. Thats a sophism my friend!

                            So, in my SCA classes I tell folks up front that these
                            are my current theories until more information
                            modifies them. I learned that practice in my own
                            collegiate classes, along with the belief that all
                            historical accounts are inherently biased by self
                            interest. Your only hope of some hint of rationality
                            is to look for commonalities to define the baseline,
                            if there is one. The rest is spin, usually for favor
                            or CYA. Pretty much the same in life.

                            As for the PC / religion comment, both are based on
                            strongly held beliefs. Both are individual but highly
                            motivating. Both can make a believer do things
                            dangerous or purposely deadly for theory and dogma.
                            Both can be easily manipulated for ends entirely
                            personal, and are every day. What will make a guy fly
                            a plane into a building, or a ship, or the ground?
                            Drugs don't. Love doesn't. Fanatacism does. I actually
                            learned that in some poly sci classes I took on a lark
                            long before it was updated on 9/11.

                            You're a lovely optimistic man, Paul, but the world
                            isn't and history is the record of that. Do you
                            remember the interpretation paradigm? When nothing is
                            proven most theories are equally valid if they
                            originate in an actual event? Or as a professor once
                            told me, "History is the record of actions. Poly Sci
                            is about making one version of those records". Thats a
                            theory though!

                            The right of final rebuttal is yours as the
                            "challenged" party. Then I concede the point in any
                            case and hope for a return to our regularly scheduled
                            programming? And less boredom for everyone else? I
                            love to agree to disagree at this level of
                            entertainment, my friend.



                            Best Regards,
                            'dok
                            "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                          • Tim Nalley
                            Much more eloquent and to the point than I m capable of! Bravo! ... Best Regards, dok Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                              Much more eloquent and to the point than I'm capable
                              of! Bravo!

                              --- "L.M. Kies" <lkies@...> wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > >The only parallel between science and history is
                              > that the
                              > >researcher must acknowledge bias and approach with
                              > the soul of a
                              > >skeptic to be good at what they do. But the hard
                              > sciences and the
                              > >"soft" sciences (history, poli sci, sociology, and
                              > probably economics
                              > >and psychology as well [although that is a heated
                              > debate]) share very
                              > >little else in common. No physicist would employ
                              > narrative
                              > >techniques or psychotherapy to analyze the
                              > splitting of an atom. In
                              > >history, there are no precise tools, no measures,
                              > and relatively
                              > >little that we can be certain of.
                              >
                              > There is a lot of uncertainty even in the hard
                              > sciences. What makes the "hard" sciences more
                              > objective (relatively speaking) is that scientific
                              > problems are more easily reduced to small,
                              > controllable, repeatedly-testible pieces. But those
                              > manageable pieces sometimes leave you with the
                              > "blind men and the elephant problem" (the guy at the
                              > tail says it's a rope, the guy at the leg says it's
                              > a tree trunk, the guy at the ear calls it a giant
                              > leaf, etc.)
                              >
                              > All experiments are vulnerable to various biases and
                              > errors. Any high school or college chemistry
                              > student who's had to calculate "experimental error"
                              > has been faced with how easy it is to mess up an
                              > experiment even when you know exactly what the
                              > outcome should be (25g of X plus 20 g of Y should
                              > produce exactly 27g of Z), much less when you're
                              > truly trying to make new discoveries.
                              >
                              > The interpretation of results is even more
                              > difficult. One of the last sections in a scientific
                              > paper is the "Discussion" of why the results turned
                              > out the way they did, and what experiments are
                              > planned to prove it. This "Discussion" generates
                              > most of the comments and criticisms of a paper.
                              >
                              > And then there's the problem of application. Just
                              > because a drug is shown to help middle-class white
                              > males decrease their cholesterol, doesn't mean it
                              > will decrease their risk of heart attack, nor does
                              > it therefore mean they will live longer/healthier
                              > (which is the real goal). Nor if it will work for
                              > women, or obese adolescents, or Asians.
                              >
                              > We'd like to think that the "hard" sciences are
                              > objective, but most of them aren't really - a
                              > sobering thought for those of us who dabble in any
                              > field of research, modern or medieval.
                              >
                              > At your service,
                              >
                              > Sofya
                              >
                              >
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > Lisa M. Kies, MD aka Lady Sofya la Rus
                              > Mason City, IA aka Shire of Heraldshill, Calontir
                              > http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser
                              > "Si no necare, sana." "Mir znachit Pax Romanov"
                              >
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]
                              >
                              >


                              Best Regards,
                              'dok
                              "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                              ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                            • Paul W Goldschmidt
                              Only this: You re a loon, but I like that about you. We can settle this over drinks at my hotel after SLUM. -- Paul
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                Only this:

                                You're a loon, but I like that about you. We can settle this over
                                drinks at my hotel after SLUM.

                                -- Paul


                                At 01:51 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:
                                >The right of final rebuttal is yours as the
                                >"challenged" party. Then I concede the point in any
                                >case and hope for a return to our regularly scheduled
                                >programming? And less boredom for everyone else? I
                                >love to agree to disagree at this level of
                                >entertainment, my friend.
                                >
                                >Best Regards,
                                >'dok
                                >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"
                              • Tim Nalley
                                Its a date then and anyone who has ever read my ramblings already knows I m a loon! Which hotel is that? I still need to reserve. The Loon (gak! gak!) ...
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                  Its a "date" then and anyone who has ever read my
                                  ramblings already knows I'm a loon! Which hotel is
                                  that? I still need to reserve.
                                  The Loon (gak! gak!)

                                  --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                                  > Only this:
                                  >
                                  > You're a loon, but I like that about you. We can
                                  > settle this over
                                  > drinks at my hotel after SLUM.
                                  >
                                  > -- Paul
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 01:51 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:
                                  > >The right of final rebuttal is yours as the
                                  > >"challenged" party. Then I concede the point in any
                                  > >case and hope for a return to our regularly
                                  > scheduled
                                  > >programming? And less boredom for everyone else? I
                                  > >love to agree to disagree at this level of
                                  > >entertainment, my friend.
                                  > >
                                  > >Best Regards,
                                  > >'dok
                                  > >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very
                                  > tasty steaks"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  Best Regards,
                                  'dok
                                  "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                  Be a better pen pal.
                                  Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                • Tim Nalley
                                  Yeah, I m that procrastinator....so where is everyone staying? Is there a favored dwelling? Lets take a poll... Best Regards, dok Some people have sacred
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                    Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is everyone
                                    staying?
                                    Is there a favored dwelling?
                                    Lets take a poll...


                                    Best Regards,
                                    'dok
                                    "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                    Be a better pen pal.
                                    Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                  • Paul W Goldschmidt
                                    I m flying in/out, so I decided to stay at the airport at the SpringHills Suites GRR. Probably not the choice of anyone driving as I m about 30 miles from the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                      I'm flying in/out, so I decided to stay at the airport at the
                                      SpringHills Suites GRR. Probably not the choice of anyone driving as
                                      I'm about 30 miles from the site.

                                      Paul

                                      At 02:58 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:

                                      >Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is everyone
                                      >staying?
                                      >Is there a favored dwelling?
                                      >Lets take a poll...
                                      >
                                      >Best Regards,
                                      >'dok
                                      >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"
                                      >
                                      >__________________________________________________________
                                      >Be a better pen pal.
                                      >Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
                                      ><http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sfandra
                                      WAAA!~ I can t go..... --wallowing in sorrow, --Sfandra ... ****************** Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                        WAAA!~ I can't go.....

                                        --wallowing in sorrow,
                                        --Sfandra



                                        --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                                        > I'm flying in/out, so I decided to stay at the
                                        > airport at the
                                        > SpringHills Suites GRR. Probably not the choice of
                                        > anyone driving as
                                        > I'm about 30 miles from the site.
                                        >
                                        > Paul
                                        >
                                        > At 02:58 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is
                                        > everyone
                                        > >staying?
                                        > >Is there a favored dwelling?
                                        > >Lets take a poll...
                                        > >
                                        > >Best Regards,
                                        > >'dok
                                        > >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very
                                        > tasty steaks"
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >__________________________________________________________
                                        > >Be a better pen pal.
                                        > >Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
                                        > how.
                                        >
                                        ><http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        ******************
                                        Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                                        KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                        Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                        Kingdom of the East
                                        ******************
                                        Never 'pearl' your butt.


                                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
                                        with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
                                      • Shannon Anderson
                                        I would like to cordially invite all my dear SIG-SLUMers to a Post-Revel after the event on December 8th, at the Amerihost Inn (Ionia, MI). Please come to Room
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                          I would like to cordially invite all my dear SIG-SLUMers
                                          to a Post-Revel after the event on December 8th,
                                          at the Amerihost Inn (Ionia, MI).
                                          Please come to Room 201 for zakuski, drinks, and frivoloty!

                                          Any questions or suggestions can be directed to me!

                                          Margarita

                                          kitonlove@...
                                          646.620.6992




                                          ---------------------------------
                                          Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • L.M. Kies
                                          I ll be at the Ionia AmeriHost. ... staying? Is there a favored dwelling? Lets take a poll... Best Regards, dok Some people have sacred cows and they make
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
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                                            I'll be at the Ionia AmeriHost.

                                            >
                                            >Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is everyone
                                            staying?
                                            Is there a favored dwelling?
                                            Lets take a poll...


                                            Best Regards,
                                            'dok
                                            "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                            Be a better pen pal.
                                            Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/



                                            Yahoo! Groups Links






                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Amy Tubbs
                                            /wallowing with Sfandra ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 27, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              /wallowing with Sfandra

                                              On Nov 27, 2007 2:42 PM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

                                              > WAAA!~ I can't go.....
                                              >
                                              > --wallowing in sorrow,
                                              > --Sfandra
                                              >
                                              > --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@... <goldschp%40tds.net>> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > I'm flying in/out, so I decided to stay at the
                                              > > airport at the
                                              > > SpringHills Suites GRR. Probably not the choice of
                                              > > anyone driving as
                                              > > I'm about 30 miles from the site.
                                              > >
                                              > > Paul
                                              > >
                                              > > At 02:58 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > >Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is
                                              > > everyone
                                              > > >staying?
                                              > > >Is there a favored dwelling?
                                              > > >Lets take a poll...
                                              > > >
                                              > > >Best Regards,
                                              > > >'dok
                                              > > >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very
                                              > > tasty steaks"
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >__________________________________________________________
                                              > > >Be a better pen pal.
                                              > > >Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
                                              > > how.
                                              > >
                                              > ><http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                              > > removed]
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > ******************
                                              > Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
                                              > KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
                                              > Haus Von Drakenklaue
                                              > Kingdom of the East
                                              > ******************
                                              > Never 'pearl' your butt.
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________________________________
                                              > Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
                                              > with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.
                                              > http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
                                              >
                                              >


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Tim Nalley
                                              Xan and I accept! She s manning the sewing machine this weekend and I m doing the handsewing and dec work. Apparently my cussing is quite sulphurous when I
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
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                                                Xan and I accept! She's manning the sewing machine
                                                this weekend and I'm doing the handsewing and dec
                                                work. Apparently my cussing is quite sulphurous when I
                                                machine sew, but I'm pleasant when slinging a
                                                needle....who wudda thunk it?

                                                Behold my manly virtues!!!!!;)

                                                --- Shannon Anderson <kitonlove@...> wrote:

                                                > I would like to cordially invite all my dear
                                                > SIG-SLUMers
                                                > to a Post-Revel after the event on December 8th,
                                                > at the Amerihost Inn (Ionia, MI).
                                                > Please come to Room 201 for zakuski, drinks, and
                                                > frivoloty!
                                                >
                                                > Any questions or suggestions can be directed to me!
                                                >
                                                > Margarita
                                                >
                                                > kitonlove@...
                                                > 646.620.6992
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ---------------------------------
                                                > Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends
                                                > inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                > removed]
                                                >
                                                >


                                                Best Regards,
                                                'dok
                                                "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                                                http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                              • Tim Nalley
                                                Dude, when are your flight times? Xan and I are driving up Friday night after work. Maybe we could do the taxi thing so you could stay at the Amerihost in
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
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                                                  Dude, when are your flight times? Xan and I are
                                                  driving up Friday night after work. Maybe we could do
                                                  the taxi thing so you could stay at the Amerihost in
                                                  Iona?
                                                  'dok
                                                  --- Paul W Goldschmidt <goldschp@...> wrote:

                                                  > I'm flying in/out, so I decided to stay at the
                                                  > airport at the
                                                  > SpringHills Suites GRR. Probably not the choice of
                                                  > anyone driving as
                                                  > I'm about 30 miles from the site.
                                                  >
                                                  > Paul
                                                  >
                                                  > At 02:58 PM 11/27/2007, you wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >Yeah, I'm that procrastinator....so where is
                                                  > everyone
                                                  > >staying?
                                                  > >Is there a favored dwelling?
                                                  > >Lets take a poll...
                                                  > >
                                                  > >Best Regards,
                                                  > >'dok
                                                  > >"Some people have sacred cows and they make very
                                                  > tasty steaks"
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >__________________________________________________________
                                                  > >Be a better pen pal.
                                                  > >Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See
                                                  > how.
                                                  >
                                                  ><http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                                  > removed]
                                                  >
                                                  >


                                                  Best Regards,
                                                  'dok
                                                  "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                  Be a better pen pal.
                                                  Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
                                                • Tim Nalley
                                                  http://www.levantia.com.au/ I posted this link for cultural cross polination consideration? I m on a SCA Byzantine discussion group also and someone posed this
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    http://www.levantia.com.au/

                                                    I posted this link for cultural cross polination
                                                    consideration?

                                                    I'm on a SCA Byzantine discussion group also and
                                                    someone posed this site. I was interested because
                                                    Byzantiun m had such a longand apparent effect on the
                                                    Rus and the Viking world before them.

                                                    On yet another discussion site I'm on there was a
                                                    quiry recently about viking puffy pants.

                                                    'dok

                                                    Best Regards,
                                                    'dok
                                                    "Some people have sacred cows and they make very tasty steaks"


                                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                    Get easy, one-click access to your favorites.
                                                    Make Yahoo! your homepage.
                                                    http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                                                  • Patoodle@aol.com
                                                    *joins in the crying* But I look forward to the CD of the proceedings! --Patricia of Trakai ... From: Amy Tubbs To:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      *joins in the crying*

                                                      But I look forward to the CD of the proceedings!

                                                      --Patricia of Trakai


                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Amy Tubbs <ivanova.doch@...>
                                                      To: sig@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:02 pm
                                                      Subject: Re: [sig] SLUM - can't make it, sob sob!



                                                      /wallowing with Sfandra

                                                      On Nov 27, 2007 2:42 PM, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:

                                                      > WAAA!~ I can't go.....
                                                      >
                                                      > --wallowing in sorrow,
                                                      > --Sfandra
                                                      >


                                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                                      More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/text.htm?ncid=aolcmp00050000000003


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Rick Orli
                                                      Whatever the PC movement s purpose is, the result is to recast history to serve a modern political end. Not that that is unusual - that is what most history
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Whatever the PC movement's purpose is, the result is to recast
                                                        history to serve a modern political end. Not that that is unusual -
                                                        that is what most history as written down was, is, and will be, as
                                                        was argued above. But American PC folks like to be proud of it.

                                                        The "PC issues" I have with Taras Bulba are mostly the PC-for-its-
                                                        time potrayal of the Cossacks as sort of a tribe of Souix indians,
                                                        who had lived as they do since the begining of time in peace and
                                                        freedom until the foreigners invaded (taxcollectors, jews and all);
                                                        an inventive image, and one powerful enough to have been believed
                                                        fairly widely as historically accurate.

                                                        Ironically, you could restage it among the actual Souix and USA in
                                                        the 1900s, or among the Chucksee and the Muscovites in the 1500s, and
                                                        you would get a more accurate historical picture with the storyline
                                                        essentially intact.


                                                        >
                                                        > You are misunderstanding the purpose behind the PC-movement.
                                                        ... anti-sem...
                                                      • Rick Orli
                                                        Excellect suggestion. I have been toying with doing some early Rus & Byzantine work myself. -Rick
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Excellect suggestion. I have been toying with doing some early Rus &
                                                          Byzantine work myself.
                                                          -Rick
                                                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > http://www.levantia.com.au/
                                                          >
                                                          > I posted this link for cultural cross polination
                                                          > consideration?
                                                          >
                                                          > I'm on a SCA Byzantine discussion group also and
                                                          > someone posed this site. I was interested because
                                                          > Byzantiun m had such a longand apparent effect on the
                                                          > Rus and the Viking world before them.
                                                        • L.M. Kies
                                                          From my Rus point of view, the garb looks rather foreign - which makes sense since it s Romanian/Byzantine. But there are lots of good ideas/details and its
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            From my Rus point of view, the garb looks rather foreign - which makes sense since it's Romanian/Byzantine. But there are lots of good ideas/details and its very interesting to see his description of the evolution of fashions. He almost makes it sound like Byzantine fashions had more influence on Western Europe than they did on Russia. ;-)

                                                            Sofya

                                                            >------- Original Message -------
                                                            >
                                                            >Excellect suggestion. I have been toying with doing some early Rus &
                                                            Byzantine work myself.
                                                            -Rick
                                                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > http://www.levantia.com.au/
                                                            >
                                                            > I posted this link for cultural cross polination
                                                            > consideration?
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm on a SCA Byzantine discussion group also and
                                                            > someone posed this site. I was interested because
                                                            > Byzantiun m had such a longand apparent effect on the
                                                            > Rus and the Viking world before them.




                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links






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