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  • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
    Good Evening People, With all due respect to any SIG heralds, I m in a bit of a grump with my local ones. Months and months ago, they helpfully found a text
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 6, 2007
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      Good Evening People,
      With all due respect to any SIG heralds, I'm in a bit of a grump with
      my local ones.

      Months and months ago, they helpfully found a text supporting my claim
      that Nawojka is a suitable name to register. Now I have had my
      submission rejected (amongst other reasons) because I didn't provide an
      English translation. It would have saved a lot of everyone's time if
      they had told me to get a translation in the first place, but now I
      know, may I respectfully request someone's help in translating a few
      paragraphs? If you can help, please email me at rosie_0801@...

      Cheers,
      Rosie the Frustrated But Intending to Follow Through as She Paid Forty
      Bucks For It
    • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
      Geez I m a nutcase at times. It s Polish I need translated. Probably should mention that if I want help, eh! Can someone more knowlegable than I explain why
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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        Geez I'm a nutcase at times. It's Polish I need translated. Probably
        should mention that if I want help, eh!

        Can someone more knowlegable than I explain why there is a problem
        here? My rejected device is:
        Vert. On a fess argent a lekawica purpure.
        (A lekawica looks like two books done in a line drawing stuck
        together like a concertina. I found it here:
        http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm)


        I'm told it conflicts with this:
        Vert, on a fess argent two saltorels throughout, each surmounted with
        a Celtic cross, all sable

        and

        The flag of Suriname: Vert, on a fess gules fimbriated argent a
        mullet Or (since a fess gules fimbriated argent is the equivelent
        of 'on a fess argent a fess gules')

        The first one is supposed to be a "single Clear difference for the
        changes to the tertiaries." I don't really know what that means, but
        it doesn't sound like one difference to me, but two. I mean, if the
        charge is different, and it's a different colour, that's two degrees
        worth of difference isn't it? And having looked up a flag of
        Suriname, I can't see how it looks anything like my (not)device.

        Rosie- Wailing "I don't get it!"

        >May I respectfully request someone's help in translating a few
        > paragraphs? If you can help, please email me at rosie_0801@...
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Rosie the Frustrated But Intending to Follow Through as She Paid
        Forty
        > Bucks For It
      • Sfandra
        Were you rejected at Kingdom level or at Laurel level? ... So, SCAdian heraldry 101: the CoA says that unless your device is Super Simple, you need 2 clear
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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          Were you rejected at Kingdom level or at Laurel level?

          --- "Rosie (aka Nawojka)" <Rosie_0801@...>
          wrote:

          > Can someone more knowlegable than I explain why
          > there is a problem
          > here? My rejected device is:
          > Vert. On a fess argent a lekawica purpure.
          > (A lekawica looks like two books done in a line
          > drawing stuck
          > together like a concertina. I found it here:
          > http://www.szlachta.org/heraldry.htm

          So, SCAdian heraldry 101: the CoA says that unless
          your device is Super Simple, you need 2 clear changes
          from anyone else's devise.

          Example of Super Simple: Green w/ a Gold Rampant Lion
          versus Red with a Gold Rampant Lion. 1 Difference in
          the color of background, because very few people would
          mistake Green for Red.

          Your devise is NOT Simple. So therefore you have to
          have 2 real differences.

          Breaking down a devise: There's the Background. Then
          there is the Primary. Your background is Green. Your
          Primary is the white bar across the middle.
          Secondaries are anything else on the Green part of the
          sheild. Tertiaries are anything ON the Primary.
          Tertiaries are tricky because they in total only count
          as 1 Difference.

          > I'm told it conflicts with this:
          > Vert, on a fess argent two saltorels throughout,
          > each surmounted with
          > a Celtic cross, all sable

          Because they're both Green, and they both have a white
          Fess. You only get 1 Difference for the number and
          color of the Tertiaries (here, 2 black saltorels w/
          celtic crosses -and let me say how "busy" that is-
          versus your one purple lekawica).

          > The flag of Suriname: Vert, on a fess gules
          > fimbriated argent a
          > mullet Or (since a fess gules fimbriated argent is
          > the equivelent
          > of 'on a fess argent a fess gules')

          This I'd have to argue with. Your fess is white, not
          red with white edging, and your purple lekawica
          doesn't really resemble a gold star. I think the
          attitude that a fess gules fibriated argent is the
          same as on a fess argent a fess gules is Stupid. If it
          was the same, there wouldn't be a word for
          "fimbriated". But for whatever reason, the flag of
          Suriname is in the Armorial as an "important Non-SCA
          flag" (why I don't know) so you have to clear it.

          >
          > Rosie- Wailing "I don't get it!"

          Yeah, SCA heraldry is weird and honestly a disturbing
          proportion of it is controlled by the personalities
          doing the checking, and their knowledge or lack
          thereof. My fiancee was once told because someone
          already had a tree, he couldn't have a tree. *blink
          blink* That was it. No Differences no finagling.
          "tough, you can't have a tree. Next!" Obviously a
          warm-body herald, and NOT someone who knew what they
          were doing. Its entirely possible that had the
          person doing the checking NOT made the call about the
          fess gules fibriated argent = a fess argent with
          another red fess on top, then you might have been
          clear.

          It's annoying and frustrating and I usually tell
          people "unless what you want is obviously someone
          else's -- like say the devise of the Midrealm or
          something -- then just use it and forget the CoA"

          --Sfandra
          --and i LIKE heraldry and conflict checking, etc.

          ******************
          Posadnitsa Sfandra Dmitrieva Chernigova
          KOE, Maunche, Apprentice to Maitresse Irene LeNoir
          Haus Von Drakenklaue
          Kingdom of the East
          ******************
          Never 'pearl' your butt.

          __________________________________________________
          Do You Yahoo!?
          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          http://mail.yahoo.com
        • T Duran
          ... I can at least explain the theory behind why they call this a conflict. Basically, in period heraldy in England and France, what you would see a lot is
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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            --- "Rosie (aka Nawojka)" <Rosie_0801@...> wrote:
            > > I'm told it conflicts with this:
            > > Vert, on a fess argent two saltorels throughout,
            > > each surmounted with
            > > a Celtic cross, all sable

            On 11/8/07, Sfandra <seonaid13@...> wrote:
            > Because they're both Green, and they both have a white
            > Fess. You only get 1 Difference for the number and
            > color of the Tertiaries (here, 2 black saltorels w/
            > celtic crosses -and let me say how "busy" that is-
            > versus your one purple lekawica).

            I can at least explain the theory behind why they call this a
            conflict. Basically, in period heraldy in England and France, what
            you would see a lot is stuff like this:

            -- John Sterling bears "Vert, a fess argent."
            -- His eldest son William inherits that when he becomes the senior Sterling.
            -- His younger sons Henry and Robert (if they earn the right to their
            own coat of arms) can't use "Vert, a fess argent" because William's
            already using it. But they're proud of being Sterlings and want to
            show that they're part of the clan, so Henry takes the family coat and
            puts a couple of green dots on the fess, while Robert puts a red star
            on it. Anybody who sees the white fess on green will know they're
            dealing with a Sterling, and the little extra widgets let them know
            which branch of the family. The technical term is "cadency".

            So in your case, your device looks like you're claiming to be related
            to the person with the saltorels (I guess. If you squint.). That's
            the theory, anyway. It's based on the core English/French practice.
            The Germans, on the other hand... Instead of fiddling with tertiaries,
            all the branches of the family would use the same coat of arms, and
            swap around their helmet crests instead. But since the CoA doesn't
            register helmet crests, we're stuck with the English/French rules.

            It's often possible to get around conflicts like this by asking the
            other person for permission to conflict, but that won't help you with
            Suriname. :^( The only thing that would help there, I think, is
            someone doing a survey of period cadency and proving how period
            heralds used fimbriation, one way or the other.

            And yes, more people researching period heraldry in other countries
            would be FANTASTIC.

            --Kazimira
          • L.M. Kies
            ... A Tertiary Charge is any charge placed completely on another charge. In this case, your lekawica is completely on the fess, so it is a tertiary
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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              >Can someone more knowlegable than I explain why there is a problem
              >here? My rejected device is: Vert. On a fess argent a lekawica purpure.
              >
              >I'm told it conflicts with this:
              >Vert, on a fess argent two saltorels throughout, each surmounted with
              >a Celtic cross, all sable
              >
              >The first one is supposed to be a "single Clear difference for the
              >changes to the tertiaries." I don't really know what that means, but
              >it doesn't sound like one difference to me, but two. I mean, if the
              >charge is different, and it's a different colour, that's two degrees
              >worth of difference isn't it?

              A "Tertiary Charge" is any charge placed completely on another charge. In this case, your lekawica is completely on the fess, so it is a "tertiary charge". The two saltorels with Celtic crosses are, likewise, "tertiary charges". Unfortunately, changing a "tertiary charge", no matter how drastically, only counts as one CD. Sometimes that is a good thing. In this case, it is not.

              >The flag of Suriname: Vert, on a fess gules fimbriated argent a
              >mullet Or (since a fess gules fimbriated argent is the equivelent
              >of 'on a fess argent a fess gules')
              >
              >And having looked up a flag of
              >Suriname, I can't see how it looks anything like my (not)device.

              Well, maybe this will help.

              Your device is green with a decorated stripe across it.
              Field=green. Primary charge=white bar. Tertiary charge=purple book-thing.

              Suriname flag is green with a decorated stripe across it.
              Field=green. Primary charge=red bar with white edges. Tertiary charge=gold star. This is apparently the same as:
              Field=green. Primary charge=white bar. Tertiary charge=red bar. Tertiary charge=gold star.

              I'm not sure I would agree that a red bar with a white edge is the same as a red bar lying on a white stripe (although looking at the actual flag of Suriname there is more white on it than a mere "white edge", but anyway), since that was their decision, the only difference between your device and the flag is the "Tertiary Charge", again only worth 1 CD. You might try to argue that you've changed two "Tertiary Charges" by 1.) removing the "red bar" and 2.) changing the gold star for a purple book thing, but I'm afraid that there's this thing called a "Charge Group" and since both the red bar and the gold star are on the same white fess, they are in the same "Tertiary Charge Group", so, again, no matter what you do to them together or separately, it only counts as one CD. Unfortunately.

              I hope this makes a little more sense, now.

              At your service,

              Sofya



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
              It was rejected at Kingdom level. The really annoying part is the herald who helped with most of my submission at barony level, including finding the polish
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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                It was rejected at Kingdom level. The really annoying part is the
                herald who helped with most of my submission at barony level,
                including finding the polish document, has now been promoted to
                Kingdom level herald. So there's not really anyone to complain (very
                nicely and reasonably) to.

                > So, SCAdian heraldry 101: the CoA says that unless
                > your device is Super Simple, you need 2 clear changes
                > from anyone else's devise.
                >
                > Example of Super Simple: Green w/ a Gold Rampant Lion
                > versus Red with a Gold Rampant Lion. 1 Difference in
                > the color of background, because very few people would
                > mistake Green for Red.

                Aha! Clearly my definition of "simple" is completely wrong. My idea
                of simple is more about how tricky something will be to embroider.
                Under my definition, my (not)device is really simple and your rampant
                lion example isn't. Heheheh.

                Anyway, the person I'm conflicting with has given me permission to do
                so, and I think the flag of Suriname is arguable. They wouldn't be
                mistaken at a distance, and I don't think they'd care anyway! Or do
                you think I should be well behaved and change it. I don't want to. I
                think it's pretty :)

                Rosie
              • Rosie (aka Nawojka)
                It s based on the core English/French practice. ... From the bit I ve read about Polish heraldry, they go to even less trouble then the Germans. A coat of arms
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 7, 2007
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                  It's based on the core English/French practice.
                  > The Germans, on the other hand... Instead of fiddling with tertiaries,
                  > all the branches of the family would use the same coat of arms, and
                  > swap around their helmet crests instead. But since the CoA doesn't
                  > register helmet crests, we're stuck with the English/French rules.
                  > --Kazimira
                  >

                  From the bit I've read about Polish heraldry, they go to even less
                  trouble then the Germans. A coat of arms belonged to an entire clan,
                  not an individual person. Rather like how modern persons think
                  it's "their" coat of arms because they share the surname. Interesting
                  stuff huh?
                  Rosie
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